Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Site stuff

Join our Innovation Panel to try new features early and help make Mumsnet better.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Effective measures against threads that encourage racism and misogyny

372 replies

rockingchaircandle · 07/06/2020 09:45

I posted yesterday about the series of threads on Meghan Markle. In emails MN have acknowledged that they struggle with the subtle and not-so-subtle racism these threads bring.

The post led to discussions where many women, especially women of colour, explained how these threads made them feel.

Posters who have formed a clique around anti-Meghan threads, used another thread to organised the spamming of the thread to derail it. MN have also said they are going to take a longer, overall look at the posters who we feel are not here with good intentions. However the entire thread was deleted, as the posters intended and the debate was shut down, and those voices lost.

Unfortunately the thread degenerated to the point it was no longer salvageable, and so we had no option but to delete it. We want to allow free discussion as much as possible, especially on such an important topic as anti-racism, but sometimes when we have to make lots of deletions, threads end up with so many holes that it makes no sense to keep them up. We hope you understand where we're coming from. The derailing posts were obvious - they were either personal attacks or reference to TV shows etc. They could have deleted them. There are now another 2 threads up about Meghan Markle.

So, I know this will probably get deleted, but to the people who posted yesterday I just wanted a message to show that not everyone agrees with this. I'm sorry, MN have heard - I hope they will do something more effective if they truly think anti-racism is an important topic.

OP posts:
Samcro · 09/06/2020 09:58

@Froq

Whilst I think that the clarity is a positive step, I do agree that rocking could help things further by apologising to the posters she’s driven into hiding (I am one) or off the site entirely with her, perhaps, well intentioned but aggressive posting.
ahh do you mean the ones who would not allow anyone to speak unless they agreed with their narrative? the ones who deliberately derailed serious threads?\or the one with 10 accounts.
CatherineOfAragonsPomegranate · 09/06/2020 10:27

So in other words, as long as anyone anywhere at anytime says "I object to this thread, because I am offended because it could be construed as racist, transphobic, disablist quote and any other 'ist' you want to add - as long as I scream about it long enough, then it will be shut down. Trouble makers and deliberate serial derailers must be engaged with, the voices of other POC will be dismissed in favour of those shouting loudest even if they are white, topics and reaches of conversation will be limited, and the amount of threads permitted on a subject will be restricted?

I can now see the case for an alternative site. It's almost like you are canvassing on their behalf.

And this: I've been here a long time, and on and off the H&M threads since MM came on the scene and that is just not the case.

As already stated, it is most certainly the case.

rockingchaircandle · 09/06/2020 10:46

The thread asked for 'effective measures against threads that encourage racism and misogyny'. I'm not sure why you want to argue against them. But if you do, mispresenting them won't help. Be specific and refer to the statement about the bits you're not happy with and why.

OP posts:
derxa · 09/06/2020 10:50

Trouble makers and deliberate serial derailers must be engaged with, the voices of other POC will be dismissed in favour of those shouting loudest even if they are white, topics and reaches of conversation will be limited, and the amount of threads permitted on a subject will be restricted? Sounds like it Catherine.

Samcro · 09/06/2020 10:51

why would anyone see anything with racism and disablism deleted?

Samcro · 09/06/2020 10:51

sorry "wrong with"

Froq · 09/06/2020 11:07

Sounds about right @CatherineOfAragonsPomegranate

Quite the change from a few months back when MNHQ advises us to ‘scroll on by’ the derailers.

At least we’re clear on where we stand now though.

Froq · 09/06/2020 11:08

*advised

rockingchaircandle · 09/06/2020 11:15

At least we’re clear on where we stand now though. The MN statement is really clear on where we all stand. No idea why you want to argue against it, but if you do, be specific and refer to the statement about the bits you're not happy with and why.

OP posts:
Froq · 09/06/2020 11:23

The MN statement is really clear on where we all stand.

Did I not just say that?

be specific and refer to the statement about the bits you're not happy with and why.

Did that not just happen? Catherine highlighted it and I agreed with it.

Samcro · 09/06/2020 11:42

@Froq

Sounds about right *@CatherineOfAragonsPomegranate*

Quite the change from a few months back when MNHQ advises us to ‘scroll on by’ the derailers.

At least we’re clear on where we stand now though.

the "derailers" were just people who had a different opinion.
Froq · 09/06/2020 11:52

This is getting repetitive.

CatherineOfAragonsPomegranate · 09/06/2020 12:21

why would anyone see anything wrong with with racism and disablism deleted?

I believe in freedom of debate.

I have zero problem with specific posts being deleted if truly within the rules (as opposed to so ambiguous you have to turn upside down to see it) of what MN says is wrong and also if many people find it upsetting. I reported posts on the Meghan threads myself occasionally, not because I personally found them offensive, (I'd rather explain why I find something upsetting or why something may be construed as upsetting, which is actually far more effective) but I just knew they would be jumped on by the usuals in order to justify getting the thread shut down.

But that's as far I go. Thread pulling I completely disagree with, except where the mental health of the OP is in question/issues of being recognised/ obvious bullying to the OP etc. Aside from that I don't care how offensive it is.

In the early days of MN they had this philosophy to a greater extent and the 'hide thread' facility was supposed to make it easier for people to avoid threads they found upsetting. In fact many times people would say "I'm hiding this thread now" Now they say "Why is MN allowing this thread? Why is MN agreeing with racism etc? Then MN brought out the 'Not in the spirit' clause, which to whom we have to ask, does this apply? The women happily debating and joining in the thread or those not enjoying it? That was the start of the arbitrary thread closing. Sometimes you would see 4 or more popular threads a you were watching disappear in a week. By this MN said a mother is certain thing. Albeit one not capable of withstanding challenging debate.

MN is a forum for discussion. It is not their job to curtail free speech. They are not racist/disablist/sexist/transphobic for allowing the free speech of other people.

It is ultimately about free speech here and on the web in general. There is too much censorship of opinion.

I stand by this. I was on a thread 2 days ago about the statue of Edward Colstson being pulled down, which, whilst I felt it regrettable it was pulled down in that moment due to deflection from the direct issues at stake, none-the-less I was trying to explain why some BAME people felt so strongly against it and why some feel the sorrow of slavery deeply even now.

Many people did not agree and expressed some opinions and attitudes I found quite challenging and honestly upsetting. Some were being goady.

I didn't call those posters racist, or bigots. I didn't canvass for the thread to be pulled or report anyone's posts. I didn't accuse MN mods of 'allowing racism' for not intervening to control some unpleasant thoughts

I didn't return to the thread. Note I did not return, not expect the thread to be gone.

The problem now is that when people have their feelings hurt, they expect to have whatever offended them removed. Debate is stifled because people cannot express their real opinion. So those people don't post anymore. This definitely happened on the M threads. When they are unsuccessful at getting whatever offends them removed immediately, they resort to trying to causing arguments in order to get the thread pulled. They call poster's names, and aim vitriol at them without asking what their intentions were or giving them a chance to explain.

Those names are quite serious: 'racist' is a strong term equal to calling someone anti-semitic. It should, in my opinion, be used in extreme cases so it can retain it's power. Are some prejudiced or ignorant? Yes. They can be taught. There isn't a person on the planet who doesn't have some predjudices. We all prefer and identify with our ingroup. Yet I note that rather inconsistently MN allows people to call others these names without deletion. Not saying they should be deleted but be consistent.

MN increasingly happily comply when people cite whatever ism/phobic/ist they want. This tactic is replicated across MN as it has proven effective. So they now have a big problem on their hands as this is what people expect when something upsets them. People expect MN to be nice and uncontroversial and frankly non-reflective of the real world or debate on sites elsewhere.

I noted people applauding MN mods for actually cutailing threads and what content people are allowed to discuss. That I find shocking to be honest and illustrative of how far expectations of nice conversation have gone.

At least with the Mccanns there was real threat of litigation. But I recall many grumbles about the censorship regardless.

There is also the inconsistency. There was a thread a few months ago about Michael Buble where he was more or less called a domestic abuser. That stood. I have seen threads alleging things about VB marriage based on BG. They have stood.

So it really is about who shouts loudly the most. That imo, should not be the metric by which entire threads that hundreds of women have contributed to are shut down.

Froq · 09/06/2020 13:13

Catherine your posts are incredible. I really admire your patience.

Roussette · 09/06/2020 13:14

When they are unsuccessful at getting whatever offends them removed immediately, they resort to trying to causing arguments in order to get the thread pulled

I speak for myself, don't agree. I went on the multitude of threads to disagree with something, or to put another viewpoint, or to say I felt what was being said was really unfair. I had a point of view. I wanted to say it which is fair enough. I never ever went on with the intention of getting the thread pulled. It's very easy to say that when someone just disagrees with you and you get uptight about that.

The 4 'positive' H&M threads were called echo chambers. Well... surely it's the same on the numerous H&M threads f you're insinuating that everyone has to agree with you and i we come on with a dissenting voice, we're trying to get it zapped

BTW, I have known of Victorial Beckham threads beign zapped. If that's the VB you mean. Not sure what BG is.

RosesandAnts · 09/06/2020 13:23

We will also be minded to delete bottom-feeding internet rumours (although not, to be clear, posts about stories that have appeared in mainstream outlets) - so again, please do report any you see

That sounds fair. Excellent outcome!

SetPhasersTaeMalkie · 09/06/2020 13:30

@Roussette I think BG is Blind Gossip.

Roussette · 09/06/2020 13:32

Ahhh right, makes sense now!

Froq · 09/06/2020 13:33

@Roussette having a difference of opinion is one thing. That can create healthy discussion, which is great.

But when labels are then thrown at posters because of that difference of opinion it becomes quite another thing. If posters didn’t agree or continued to post about M then they were classed as terrible things and that shuts down the primary discussion.

Just yesterday you labelled posters as addicts for joining in a new thread about M&H. Where do we go from that?

ButteryPuffin · 09/06/2020 13:35

@Rousette

f you're insinuating that everyone has to agree with you and i we come on with a dissenting voice, we're trying to get it zapped

Dissenting voice as in difference of opinion, fine. Dissenting voice as in 'OMG this thread is vile, you're all vile for posting on it and MN is vile for not shutting it down' - well, it's still a point of view, but it tends not to get people to listen to your argument, and it could - I think - be seen as an equivalent to the 'derailing' MN have said they do not want to see on threads. I don't think all posters who dislike criticism of the Sussexes take this approach, but it does happen and it means that when posters respond in kind, you end up at the point of 'you're just not tolerating dissent from the majority'. It should be possible to discuss how and why you see things differently without getting personal.

BG I assume is Blind Gossip.

ButteryPuffin · 09/06/2020 13:36

@Froq cross post!

Roussette · 09/06/2020 13:47

Just yesterday you labelled posters as addicts for joining in a new thread about M&H. Where do we go from that?

I honestly cannot remember using the word 'addicts' in any post at all. Please link me to it.

I do remember saying that talking about H&M has become habit. Is that what you mean?

I will apologise now for not remembering calling people addicts if that is indeed the case, I've searched on here and can't find it.

derxa · 09/06/2020 13:49

We will also be minded to delete bottom-feeding internet rumours (although not, to be clear, posts about stories that have appeared in mainstream outlets) - so again, please do report any you see
Yes that is a very good guideline because there is some mad stuff out there. The trouble is that if we are not allowed to discuss Harry and Meghan due to people yelling 'Racist!' every five minutes then people will go to less savoury sites.

Roussette · 09/06/2020 13:51

On reflection, maybe I said people are addicted to talking about M&H? Was that it?

Wracking my brains here...
If that is what you mean, I do think there is an element of truth in that. I've been on all the Trump threads (we're at number 101) and that makes me somewhat addicted to that subject.

Roussette · 09/06/2020 13:54

Buttery

Coming at it from a slightly different angle to you... it just seems to me that when a number of if you like more 'pro' MM than 'anti' MM go on a thread that is obviously full of people that aren't fans... it might look like an effort to derail.

From my point of view, it isn't. I go and look, I feel something that has been said is not fair, I post disagreeing. It honestly is as simple as that.

Swipe left for the next trending thread