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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Mumsnet moderation - response to yesterday's feedback

571 replies

JustineMumsnet · 04/07/2018 18:22

Hi all,

I’ve had lots of contact about about yesterday’s thread which has now maxed out so thought I’d put a response here.

First of all our guidelines absolutely do allow people to discuss biology and science. And we absolutely see why some of Penny Mordaunt’s words yesterday would raise concerns amongst those with a gender critical POV - so maybe it wasn’t, in retrospect, the best moment to make a point. Nonetheless we do believe that as a rule Spartacus-type threads are not conducive to a constructive debate and that trans people would be likely to feel attacked and/or excluded by them.

To state the obvious and as I’ve said before, this is an extremely polarised debate in which even the most basic terms are disputed, so if we’re going to have it here we’re in danger of being attacked from all sides (which we are in actual fact). Nonetheless, we think it’s important, so we’ll keep at it and we’ll keep trying to moderate it to make it as open and civil as we possibly can.

You should also know that I’m due to meet soon with Penny Mordaunt to discuss “any ideas you may have on the women and equalities agenda’' and I will of course reflect the strong opinion of many Mumsnetters wrt to this issue and ask her to do a webchat too.

Thanks, as ever, for your input.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 06/07/2018 08:18

What WOULD make a zillion people's lives easier, would be to address stereotypes through marketing and actually addressing male violence. Using the police, the courts and a proper prison reform system which means violent men are actually dealt with properly.

Hope that helps. Go well.

TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 06/07/2018 08:48

Question for Penny:

If people have been changing sex for decades, how many:
a - Men who 'became' women have gestated a baby?
b - Women who 'became' men provided sperm for a woman to gestate a baby?

If the answer is 'none' - then the project failed.

Thus the GRA needs to be repealed as it turns out - nobody did actually change sex after all.

R0wantrees · 06/07/2018 08:55

I mentioned earlier that Penny might give her colleagues a heads up about Pink News.

John Bercow the speaker was a member of he Conservatives so perhaps they might have a quiet word?

Pink News comments :
"Although the holder of the office of Speaker is required to be politically independent, Bercow has repeatedly spoken up in favour of LGBT equality during his nine years in the role.

"He made no exception at the July 4 PinkNews reception in Speaker’s House, giving a “most explicit and unequivocal statement of support” for LGBT rights and PinkNews"

John Bercow goes on to say (as reported by PN)
"There’s still a huge challenge in terms of the trans community. We need to up our level of standing up for the rights of trans people. We shouldn’t allow people to peddle anti-trans messages under the guise of trying to protect other people’s rights. We shouldn’t let people muddy the waters in that way. It’s just not people screaming abuse in the streets – it’s sometimes people who have access to the media and can write articulately, and are using their position to push messages which I think result in very considerable and dangerous displays of hostility to trans people. Up with that we must not put, as Churchill might have said.”

It is rather worrying therefore when in the week the Government launches the consultation and the minister for Women's & Equalities says on R4 Today program,
"Those women who are raising those concerns, those are legitimate concerns that we need to address…We will listen to everyone’s voice in this consultation."

that the Speaker of the House has a 'rant about Gender Critical women

There are many LGBT+ businesses, organisations and charities. Is there a reason why the Conservative party seem to be sponsored by Pink News?

O and as Bercow quoted Churchill, here's another (referenced):

Winston Churchill in the U.K. Parliament on October 13, 1943:

'So we must beware of a tyranny of opinion which tries to make only one side of a question the one which may be heard. Everyone is in favour of free speech. Hardly a day passes without its being extolled, but some people’s idea of it is that they are free to say what they like, but if anyone says anything back, that is an outrage.'

Mumsnet moderation - response to yesterday's feedback
MnerXX · 06/07/2018 14:49

It has taken a while to get to the end of this thread but I am disappointed to see when so many have poured their hearts out with their own stories, Justine has not returned for a good while to answer the many, many valid queries and discussion points.

I found MN when I needed a community - not long after my son was born, my dad died and then my family fell to pieces. My mum is as useful as a chocolate teapot and the in-laws have a controlling streak... I had very little useful support and I needed to laugh through the long nights, I was desperate for advice on feeding, weaning, potty training, starting school... I always come here first for anything and everything - choosing our dog, buying a car, looking for a holiday... The network of support here is vast and amazing.

Please Justine listen to the people who are the soul of your site - the (mostly) women with all their stories, humour and experiences. Don't lose this over an effort to be 'nice' to these people. It will never be enough. If they are so offended biology, then maybe they should look away, build their own community with their own experiences.

GoldenBuns · 06/07/2018 18:04

I am generally a lurker on this board, so apologies if this isn't put well.

What I want to say to Penny:

I feel very strongly that my biology is what makes me a woman and is the single thing that connects me to millions and millions of women around the globe. It is the reason why both historically and in the present, women have been abused and oppressed. Because of my biology, my body has its own, very specific set of needs and definitions - it is becoming increasingly hard to discuss these now through fear of offending or worse.

Transwomen should have rights and protection, but the starting point for their discussion cannot be that they are women and have the same needs. It is simply not true. How can we have any kind of debate if this is not acknowledged clearly by the people who are in power?

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 06/07/2018 18:19

Delurk away, GoldenBuns. Ace post. Please comment more. We all need to speak out.

GoldenBuns · 06/07/2018 18:33

Thanks Prawn - I have found it quite hard to follow the legal sides of this debate, but I feel very strongly that protecting and defining our biological sex so that is it crystal clear and no longer up for debate is at the heart of this whole mess.

Newsofas · 06/07/2018 18:35

Great post Goldenbuns.

ErrolTheDragon · 06/07/2018 18:38

Very well put, Goldenbuns

I'm feeling a bit tired and cynical so maybe my answer to 'any ideas you may have on the women and equalities agenda’ would be a bit too terse
Women - still adult human females. Equalities - that'd be nice but equitabilities would be better.

Justine may well have meetings etc she can't duck out of, and there's a lot of stuff to read in this thread. After the misjudged 'zillion' trying to respond in real time, I'd expect her not to dive straight back in TBH.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 06/07/2018 18:48

Senior members of Unite have signed an open letter complaining about systemic attempts to shut down meetings organised by women at which they can discuss potential legislative changes.

This angered trans allies on the Left. The writer Aaron Bastani said: Some of those signatories have no interest in open debate.

But of course it's the transactivists who insist on #nodebate as if it's a good thing. They don't want a debate, do they, GoldenBuns, because when you look at the facts, sex is real, gender is bollocks and women's biology is used to disadvantage us.

GoldenBuns · 06/07/2018 19:03

The shutting down of free speech is chilling, Prawn.

Could some of the eloquent voices on the feminism board also produce an open letter to Penny?

iamawoman · 06/07/2018 20:05

@justinemumsnet

"Really not insinuating anything - but the age divide on this issue has been well documented. Doesn't mean anyone's embittered or wrong, it's just a fact."

is the same type of fact as transwomen are biological males, always have been and always will be. And a biological male with male genitals intact well it could be argued they are not even a transwomen just a man that cross dresses

madja · 06/07/2018 20:14

'So we must beware of a tyranny of opinion which tries to make only one side of a question the one which may be heard. Everyone is in favour of free speech. Hardly a day passes without its being extolled, but some people’s idea of it is that they are free to say what they like, but if anyone says anything back, that is an outrage.'

You know, I kept reading and reading today, but this says it all really.
Pretty disgusted with John Bercow though.

Datun · 06/07/2018 20:16

GoldenBuns

The shutting down of free speech is chilling, Prawn.

Could some of the eloquent voices on the feminism board also produce an open letter to Penny?

Excellent suggestion.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3297184-Your-comments-for-Penny-Mordaunt

BettyDuMonde · 06/07/2018 20:42

Can we please have a thread equivalent to the Transwidows thread for GC parents of gender questioning children?

I’ve seen a few threads pop up recently (not all in FWR) where parents just want a bit of signposting and a connection with other parents in the same sort of position and they always attract some self righteous TRA shouting down the parent for having the audacity to be upset or policing the language that the parent has used (see current thread called ‘ROGD’ for an example).

It’s essentially bullying a currently vulnerable parent, who is posting on a parenting orientated website (as opposed to a trans support site) for a reason.

TopDog123 · 06/07/2018 20:50

The concept of free speech doesn't mean that you can say whatever you want about any subject at any time and other people are not permitted to object or find it offensive or for it to violate certain rules of organisations or businesses.

Everyone has free speech on MN and any other website. If you break guidelines you risk deletion. But you're free to say whatever you want to say, doesn't mean other people or an organisation or business (or even a society and it's Police force and government) has to accept and support it and not take action if they feel it is unacceptable or against the law.

R0wantrees · 06/07/2018 21:21

But you're free to say whatever you want to say, doesn't mean other people or an organisation or business (or even a society and it's Police force and government) has to accept and support it and not take action if they feel it is unacceptable or against the law.

Heather Brunskell Evens account of the 'actions' taken by some TRAs to prevent people attending the 'We Need to Talk' event at the Jam Jar, Bristol. The stairs to the upstairs room were blocked.
May 2018.
'An assault on free speech and free thought'

Heather Brunskell-Evens describes her experience as a volunteer in the human rights observer in the Palestinian territories during a heated and dangerous situation

(extract)
"Why do I tell you this personal story? First, to let you know that I have a certain fearlessness, plus a strong, lifelong ethical commitment to resisting injustice and to the peaceful resolution of conflict.

Second, to illustrate the complexity of my feelings about the political protest in Bristol. I found myself trapped in a stairwell by masked trans activists who believed me to be the oppressor, equivalent to Israeli soldiers, and who believed transwomen to be actual women and the most victimised and oppressed of all social groups.

I appealed to the activist nearest me but he refused eye contact. I have subsequently been informed, perhaps erroneously, that he self-identifies as a woman.

Because I do not accept that transwomen really are women, identical with other women, although of course with rights as individuals to identify how they wish, he felt morally justified in using his superior physical strength and slurring me as a transphobe and a nazi.

I feared the injuries I might sustain if pushed downstairs; I looked down on myself being obstructed from speaking by a man almost young enough to be my grandson.

Parents, medics, social commentators and psychotherapists critical of transgender doctrine have far more to fear however than masked 20-year-olds using masculinist tactics of intimidation.

They fear being accused by social services of not safeguarding their own children, of losing their licence to practice as medics, of being no-platformed in their universities, of being expelled from their political parties.

I stand with other women, and with the men, transsexuals and transwomen who are my friends and colleagues critical of the proposed reform of the Gender Recognition Act 2004.

The reforms, currently in consultation (because women have pressed for their own voices to be heard as well as those emerging from the trans movement) would allow people to legally self-affirm their gender rather than, as now, being required to live as their preferred gender for two years and have a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria before a gender recognition certificate is granted.

I argue it is not being on the right side of socially progressive history to censor our reasoned concern about the rights of biological men to enter female only space and the possible consequences for women and children of self-declaration.

Any political movement that attempts to silence dialogue and that trivialises the entire being of critics, however thoughtful, into one label — transphobe — is an example of liberalism’s frightening converse. An illiberalism is entering our society that attempts to shut down not only free speech but free thought."

Heather Brunskell-Evans is an academic and formerly a spokeswoman for the Women’s Equality Party’s policy on violence against women and girls.

morningstaronline.co.uk/article/assault-free-speech-and-free-thought

TopDog123 · 06/07/2018 21:40

R0 - I work in MH in prisons. I have successfully blocked the move of convicted sex offenders (or just vulnerable inmates) self ID-ing to female estates. I've also lost in cases of trans prisoners exhibiting explicit sexually provocative behaviour and being moved and later claiming their behaviour was evidence of their abuse in male prisons.

I still have a senior position. Very few people disagree with me. Some do. A few are more powerful than me. I've managed to have my opinions respected (or not, just heard and ignored perhaps).

I don't agree with many opinions on MN about trans issues. I do see some transphobia. I'm still acting in RL based on evidence and openly GC but that doesn't always mean much in my sphere.

I don't think that MN as a free, anonymous website has to do anything more than it already is. It's just a chat site. I object to the demands and abuse levied at MNHQ and Justine.

Pratchet · 06/07/2018 21:46

Hi top dog. Thanks for what you are doing.

WichBitchHarpyTerfThatsMe · 06/07/2018 22:31

Thank you TopDog123 for doing what you're doing. Whether people consider themselves to be GC or not is irrelevant in some ways. Keeping dangerous people away from vulnerable is common sense and good responsible professional safeguarding.

Justine can't read much on here otherwise she'd have known to say 'eleventy billion' instead of 'zillions' - just saying!

thebewilderness · 06/07/2018 23:20

I continue to struggle to understand the principles that only apply to some people, to protect certain other people, but only on FWR as stated:
"Here are the principles behind the new Guidelines :

  1. We believe in free speech and civil debate. So we will, for instance, allow people to discuss biology and scientific evidence.
  2. We don’t allow posts which are derogatory or aggressive towards trans people. We believe there are ways to express both opinion and facts without crossing this line.
  3. Sweeping negative generalisations about any group, including trans people and gender-critical feminists, won’t be tolerated.
  4. Free speech by definition applies to all; for a debate to take place, opposing views which follow our Talk guidelines need to be tolerated, even if you disagree with them.
  5. We won’t allow aggressive or rude behaviour towards our moderation team."

I will continue to struggle to find a way to state facts that conflict with some people's beliefs without offending those who profess to be believers.
As an aside, I have read so much about historical periods of female erasure like this one that I confess to being fascinated to be living through one of them and seeing the nuts and bolts of how it is done.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 07/07/2018 03:54

I have successfully blocked the move of convicted sex offenders (or just vulnerable inmates) self ID-ing to female estates. I've also lost in cases of trans prisoners exhibiting explicit sexually provocative behaviour and being moved and later claiming their behaviour was evidence of their abuse in male prisons.

This is terrifying. How about we just admit that sex change is impossible and segregate by sex as intended?

Is my opinion some of the 'transphobia' on mumsnet?

As for objecting to a chat site having obligations - this site is largely user-generated content and it's usp is that it is mainly women talking. Becoming politicised is a bi-product of women talking in a world of systemic discrimination - women start to join the dots - it's a threat to the divide and conquer tactics of male supremacy. Misogynists and antifeminists will come. They will threaten. They will try to close it down. It is inevitable. Mumsnet are on a knife-edge - let women speak - which is the reason for its success or buckle to the misogynists and die a death.

It's not pleasant for MNHQ it's not pleasant for the users and the wider context isn't pleasant for women and girls.

PsychoLibrarian · 07/07/2018 10:05

So, the wealthy owner of a website who has made a great deal of money out of the women who use it is patronising and dismissive of those users? Score one for an inflated sense of entitlement and privilege.

So, the wealthy owner of a website whose users are predominantly women has a meeting with the minister in government running the consultation on whether to erase women as a sex class to pander to men? Score two for the sense of entitlement and privilege, with an extra sprinkling of the abuse of power. A corporate boss does not represent their customers or service users, they represent their corporate interests.

I am a working class woman, on a low income, who has raised an autistic son as a lone parent. I was brought up to be nice, deferential and to shut up and know my place. The conditioning did not take. I don't do nice. I defer to nobody. I will not move quiet. And I know my place - it is standing my ground and calling out the mealy-mouthed, over-privileged people who have the arrogance to presume that they know better than everyone else and to claim to speak for them.

Justine, you do not speak for me. I find your behaviour objectionable and the position you have expressed here distasteful.

I am a woman, an adult human female. I will not lie and say a man is a woman, because I know that it is impossible to change sex. Justine, you can collude in making a law built on lies if you like. It will alter nothing. I will still not lie. And I will know that you were a collaborator in the erasure of sex-based protections for women because you think your privilege will protect you from most of the consequences, and those without privilege don't matter to you except as advertising fodder to make you money.

I will say it again. The management of Mumsnet does not speak for me. I am Spartacus - what are you going to do, crucify me?

bigoldscaredycat · 07/07/2018 10:29

Well said PsychoLibrarian.

BesmirchingMotherhood · 07/07/2018 10:39

Nah, psycho, it’ll be the banhammer that gets you, speaking those kind of off-message truths, not crucifixion.