Mumsnet moderation - response to yesterday's feedback

[JustineMumsnet]

Hi all,

I’ve had lots of contact about about yesterday’s thread which has now maxed out so thought I’d put a response here.

First of all our guidelines absolutely do allow people to discuss biology and science. And we absolutely see why some of Penny Mordaunt’s words yesterday would raise concerns amongst those with a gender critical POV - so maybe it wasn’t, in retrospect, the best moment to make a point. Nonetheless we do believe that as a rule Spartacus-type threads are not conducive to a constructive debate and that trans people would be likely to feel attacked and/or excluded by them.

To state the obvious and as I’ve said before, this is an extremely polarised debate in which even the most basic terms are disputed, so if we’re going to have it here we’re in danger of being attacked from all sides (which we are in actual fact). Nonetheless, we think it’s important, so we’ll keep at it and we’ll keep trying to moderate it to make it as open and civil as we possibly can.

You should also know that I’m due to meet soon with Penny Mordaunt to discuss “any ideas you may have on the women and equalities agenda’' and I will of course reflect the strong opinion of many Mumsnetters wrt to this issue and ask her to do a webchat too.

Thanks, as ever, for your input.

@gendercritter

Yes - you're bang on with that point.

In my comment I wasn't trying to detract from someone's achievements. My following sentence was trying to highlight the disparity.

There's a lot of phrases Justine could have said that her life would have been harder without. The one she couldn't was "if I'd been a man".

Truth be told though for a lot of women the ending to "my life would have been harder" is never if I'd been "other than a woman" it's if I hadn't experienced the following:

• being raped
• being the victim of assault
• being a woman who is part of the BAEM community
• having to work twice as hard to be paid as much as a man
• losing ground on a career that's irrecoverable due to maternity leave
• speaking out publicly about being GC and threatened for it
• suffered a miscarriage or stillbirth
• suffering every month as a result of extreme period pain
• the menopause
• had to deal with the invasive procedures involved in IVF

And on and on.....

I have long since got the sense in how Mumsnet communicates that you are all good, well behaved women to be perfectly honest with you. You have been socialised as submissive women very successfully. I get it; I have too. I spend a lot of time being kind and considering others. But for god's sake, now is the time to be bolder and stand up for women
Spot on Gendercritter
Really, if there was ever a time to stand up and be counted, it's now.

I guess there's a danger of you and your family being ostracised if your social circle is predominantly woke and you're seen to be supporting the 'GC bigots' against a disadvantaged community. Safer to sit on the fence, especially if your own privileged female friends don't see actually regard women as an oppressed group.

Will Justine be in line for some sort of political reward if she silences us on here?

She could have turned in FWR years ago. But I think it helps the model. We are now at critical 'tipping point' where it's becoming unhelpful, and she probably wants to get rid of the arguing. To do that she has to get rid of the TRA. To do that, she has to get rid of us.

Justine, from your tone I get the impression that you believe transwomen are all transsexuals - men, mostly gay, who have medical trandition and who are very vulnerable due to complex MH issues.

Used to be true. No longer is. The trans lobby now is full of men who may identify as women but who keep their penis and want to use it. They are targeting young lesbians. So far three Reddit groups, started by and for lesbians have ended up being modded by transwomen who identify as lesbians. They're now on their fourth iteration. Because the transactivists are very determined and bullying.

Or you could look up #girlslikeus or perhaps read Miranda Yardley, a transsexual, who writes about autogynaephilia - a fetish based in the man's sense of the intrinsic humiliation of becoming a woman. For someone who finds wearing stereotypical women's clothing in public hugely arousing, being oppressed or humiliated is an actual plus, FFS. These make up a significant proportion of what now qualifies as transgender - and the transsexuals don't like it one bit.

But once seen you can't unsee it, Justine.

Justine, if you're reading, you owe us a proper voice. There is a loud, gender critical voice on MN, and you owe it to us to represent us properly to PM. And if you won't say the words, invite one of the many excellent posters who can and will. Please. We do not have well-funded lobbies behind us. We do not have charities like Stonewall arguing our case. We need you.

Mumsnet is in danger of becoming seen as the 'Trans hating site'. It's not arguing that's an issue because there's seldom a conflicting view. It's also not really a TRA issue because there aren't many of them on here. The problem Justine and the site faces is the way trans people are described on here by the regulars on FWR: With anger, hatred, disgust and mockery.

Really? Can you screenshot some of the hatred, disgust and mockery?

Anger I will own. With pride. Yes, I am angry with activists who seek to harm women. Is this not allowed?

If the stuff posters were saying on here was as dreadful as all that there wouldn't be any need for TRAs to make things up like the ridiculous clause 28 thing - they could simply screenshot our actual words.
I wonder why they don't do that.

Let me guess your next post - why should you waste time scrolling through etc. If it's a hotbed of mockery and disgust it should be easy to find the evidence.

This is Kristina Harrison's speech at Hastings WPUK meeting.
She is a transwoman:

Y fitz. I think they think we are an 'in crowd' and they don't like it.

The problem Justine and the site faces is the way trans people are described on here by the regulars on FWR: With anger, hatred, disgust and mockery

What a pile of crap

The problem Justine and the site faces is the way trans people are described on here by the regulars on FWR: With anger, hatred, disgust and mockery

Where? show me. show me these reams of hatred and mockery. I don’t see them. I’ve seen them on other sites, which is one reason I don’t spend much time on other sites. Go look at other forums - there you WILL see some nasty stuff. And yet they’re unchallenged.

I have never mocked anyone. My concern is the safety of women and children.

I keep hearing this ‘spewing hatred/spewing bile’ stuff but when challenged no one seems to have any actual examples.

The trans people on here who respect the rights of women are respected.
The trans people who come to debate civilly will get civil debate.

It's a two way street.

Are there any trans rights forums where GC feminists are welcome to come and discuss with the same type of talk guidelines?

Times article today:
'Self-identification will not help transgender people'
by Debbie Hayton (a teacher & transwoman)
(extract)
"Such a massive change in our relationship with society has required evidence of need: a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and medical reports. Self-identification sweeps away those safeguards. Any male person could declare they are female and inherit the rights and protections afforded to women.

It’s no wonder that women have become alarmed and have been meeting even amid intimidation and threats. They have not been reassured by platitudes. Men wouldn’t claim to be women purely to violate women’s rights, would they? Actually some might, and the ones that would are those who women are worried about.

Meanwhile, I am left in a vulnerable position. I identify with women and I have thrown in my lot with them but if women believe that there is no distinction between a transsexual and a man taking advantage, they are likely to become suspicious of everyone seeking to cross the sex divide. The law may be able to compel grudging toleration but it can never guarantee acceptance.

There is scope for the GRA to be improved. It is fussy and cumbersome, but self-identification is not a progressive step and does nothing to ensure our acceptance in society. That relies on the way we live our lives. No piece of legislation can be a substitute for that."

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c54ac9c6-7fb9-11e8-af03-7edc8dc9d023

Does anyone know why this thread no longer appears as a sticky on the Feminism Chat board?

It's still a sticky for me on the iOS app.

I am horrified that you are going to speak to Penny Mordant, Justine. Does she believe you speak for us?

You really really need to make it clear that your opinions are your own and are not representative of the users here.

Sharetoken link to the Times link (it's the Thunderer slot, high profile)
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/self-identification-will-not-help-transgender-people-n2pm780wx?shareToken=f695a8e04a2c5d3d18f0fd50bb516c42

Bravo Debbie, bravo the Times.

How many of us will it take to be allowed to speak up. To be fair things are shifting in terms of the wider media...but we have to keep shouting, writing and speaking out ...even if we are banned we not be silent about this.

Betty Bowers, "America's Best Christian", said something today about a situation in the US that really resonated with me because it applies so often to questions that are reported as controversial.
"An absence of ethics is exhibited by calling the absence of ethics "controversies" instead of an absence of ethics."
The MPs and the media frame the revision of the confusing and poorly written GRA as controversial, whereas to most women, and if the Pink News poll is to be believed, 80% of the public see it quite clearly as an absence of ethics.

Absence of ethics - absolutely - I like that phrase

the lack of ethical leadership is palpable - on here, public life, those tasked with a duty of care for and to others, and elsewhere- it's absence leads to immoral and deviant behaviour being normalised and those who object as unreasonable or radical, when in truth they are upholding much needed, prudent, safeguarding boundaries

This has made very interesting reading to me. I normally avoid all the endless trans threads because they are of no interest to me . I cannot understand why there seem to be SO many trans people all of a sudden. Yes, there have always been people who felt they were born in the wrong bodies, but it is just overwhelming how the trans movement has just taken such a massive massive step up. WHY are there so very many men who feel they should be women? I know it works the other way, but it seems to me that that there are more men than women who are transitioning.
Why suddenly so many children wanting to be the other sex? I find it truly frightening
I feel I don’t understand the world anymore. As other posters have said. I feel my rights as a woman are being eroded and overlooked, and I’m fearful of the neutral gender debate, the move to make us all homogenous .
It is heartening to note I am not alone in what i feel is a very sinister movement which has some sort of agenda.
This is truly frightening me.