Mumsnet moderation - response to yesterday's feedback

[JustineMumsnet]

Hi all,

I’ve had lots of contact about about yesterday’s thread which has now maxed out so thought I’d put a response here.

First of all our guidelines absolutely do allow people to discuss biology and science. And we absolutely see why some of Penny Mordaunt’s words yesterday would raise concerns amongst those with a gender critical POV - so maybe it wasn’t, in retrospect, the best moment to make a point. Nonetheless we do believe that as a rule Spartacus-type threads are not conducive to a constructive debate and that trans people would be likely to feel attacked and/or excluded by them.

To state the obvious and as I’ve said before, this is an extremely polarised debate in which even the most basic terms are disputed, so if we’re going to have it here we’re in danger of being attacked from all sides (which we are in actual fact). Nonetheless, we think it’s important, so we’ll keep at it and we’ll keep trying to moderate it to make it as open and civil as we possibly can.

You should also know that I’m due to meet soon with Penny Mordaunt to discuss “any ideas you may have on the women and equalities agenda’' and I will of course reflect the strong opinion of many Mumsnetters wrt to this issue and ask her to do a webchat too.

Thanks, as ever, for your input.

What bathtub said

Obviously being trans would make my life harder

Being anorexic would make my life harder

Being a victim of domestic violence would make my life harder

Being homeless would make my life harder

Having cervical cancer would make my life harder

Losing a child would make my life harder

Etc

@FreiasBathtub

* Y*ou can't extrapolate from one individual's experience to a universal. Although this is a good basis for intellectual wankery like postmodernism, it is not a good basis for public policy.

Thank you - that sums it up nicely for me.

It is the point bathtub in that it's a perfectly reasonable thing to say. The offendability is ridiculous.

@kitchenrollinrollinrollin

Respectfully, I think most of the people on this thread feel it's not ridiculous to be offended by that statement in the context of this thread.

Obviously as a standalone statement it's fine.

If used, as Justine used it, as a reason to deflect, diminish or dismiss women's concerns on behalf of women other than themselves, it's really offensive.

It dismisses the lived experience of many, many women on this site, and countless more who may not even know that what they're experiencing (DV, coercive control, FGM) is wrong!

As a female child who was heavily into science and engineering, who had more interest in football than gossiping in break times, who had no interest in dresses or make up, I would like to tell you, Justine, what would have made my life a zillion times harder.

My life would have been a zillion times harder if someone had encouraged my child self to believe that, based on my non-gender stereotype conforming preferences, I was a boy born in a girl's body. I could oh so very easily have been persuaded of this, and could have ended up down a road of puberty blockers etc. Then, like the overwhelming majority of children who question their gender at one time or another I would have eventually realised I was not a boy, but a girl who didn't conform to stereotyping. And I would then have had to live with the potentially permanent damage to my body done to me.

And that is what I still am. A woman who does not conform to gender stereotypes. I have played sport on mens teams, I have worked in a male dominated industry/environment all my adult life, I have never knowingly bought a fashion magazine. I wear exclusively male clothing (except for bras). But I am not a man. I am a woman. I have been pregnant and given birth. I do not, and I never have had gender disphoria - and neither do the majority of very young children currently being treated for it on the basis of the fact they prefer football to ballet or vice versa, and once said they rather be a boy/girl because they prefer pirates/princesses.

I have absolutely no problem with the concept of gender disphoria being discussed at schools - I certainly would never support the idea that trans issues could not be taught in schools. But I have a massive issue with the fact that the counter message that IT IS PERFECTLY POSSIBLE TO BE A GIRL/BOY THAT DOES NOT CONFORM TO FEMALE/MALE STEREOTYPES or FANCY BOYS/GIRLS is being silenced.

What bathtub said...again

I was tempted to de-reg in disgust at Justines commemts, but Justine is only the creator of Mumsnet. Not the voice of it.

Of course life would be harder if you convinced yourself liking certain things meant you had to mutilate yourself with surgery and pump your body full of artificial hormones.

Thats why gender is BS
Its also why we need gender critical feminists.

Sorry Justine, but you arent getting rid of us that easily.

@FreiasBathtub

Yet again you've articulated what was about to post.

I'm offended by Justine's statement exactly due to its context- which is in favour of limiting the language used on a GC feminist board so as not to offend the activists who specifically target it for that very reason.

Let's also be clear - Justine enjoys a very privileged life. I'm sure she's worked damn hard for it.

That said you could apply pretty much any statement after "my life would have been harder if" apart from one - and that's unless I'd been born a man.

Justine I genuinely believe you are not the person to represent the views of women to Penny Mordaunt.

Leave that to someone who has the protection, safety and wellbeing of women at the heart of what they do.

twitter.com/helensteel12/status/1014408578264961024

Sisyphus
You expressed yourself perfectly. Sorry you had to go through any of that

R0wantrees that information is for kids?!

I'm very worried.

Dragoncake
From the accessible easy-read version of the government's consultation on changes to the GRA.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/721641/gra-consultation-easy-read.pdf

Isn't it awful. The Equalities civil servants are thinking ONLY of trans people. There are no feminist advisers. This would also open an opportunity for a legal challenge through promotional bias and loaded questions.

Gosh I've read this thread with my mouth hanging open.

Justine I would like to ask you how much you've sat down and read this wonderful section of your own website? Because my sense reading your posts here that you actually haven't. Not in great detail.

You own this wonderful, transformatory space which has changed the lives of so many women, mine included. You owe it to us to take proper care to understand what we're saying.

I have long since got the sense in how Mumsnet communicates that you are all good, well behaved women to be perfectly honest with you. You have been socialised as submissive women very successfully. I get it; I have too. I spend a lot of time being kind and considering others. But for god's sake, now is the time to be bolder and stand up for women. By doing so you won't always be putting 'terribly oppressed' trans people first but that is ok. Boundaries are healthy and they keep people safe. You have your own vulnerable members to talk on behalf of - you know, women. Rape victims, domestic violence survivors, disabled women, new parents, teenage girls. I could go on. Channel Germaine Greer and have some fucking ovaries.

Background to easy read government documents here (2010):
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/215923/dh_121927.pdf

From Gov.Uk website:
"5.1 Easy read
The easy read format was created to help people with learning disabilities understand information easily. People with learning disabilities need access to all information, not just disability-specific information but also about their health, voting, work and gaining skills.

Easy read uses pictures to support the meaning of text. It can be used by a carer to talk through a communication with someone with learning difficulties so that they can understand it, for example a letter from the council about council tax charges.

Easy read is often also preferred by readers without learning disabilities, as it gives the essential information on a topic without a lot of background information. It can be especially helpful for people who are not fluent in English.

Consider commissioning easy read versions of your publications from an expert organisation"

R0wantrees that is disturbing.
It's the same blind ignorance of science as in dinosaurs not existing/no big bang to fit religious beliefs.

This is very scary indeed.

Let's also be clear - Justine enjoys a very privileged life. I'm sure she's worked damn hard for it.

I'm sure Justine has worked extremely hard. I admire that hugely. I applaud all women who succeed in life.

But let's remember too that Justine's privilege is not just about hard work. To a huge degree you are successful in life if you are born into an affluent family or one which values education, if you are surrounded by other affluent people, if you went to a good school, if you have reasonably decent genes in the sense of being good looking....

I hate people tearing down women by screaming 'white privilege' but equally there are times when it is absolutely critical to recognise how massively privileged one is. It mustn't be abused or forgotten.

Middleoftheroad

Perhaps Penny Mordant could confirm who was involved in producing the Easy Read document?

Yes Rowan. FOI?

Pratchet
It seems there may be a need for quite a few FOIs.

Sarah Newton MP is the current Minister of State for Disabled People, Health and Work.
It may be that this department has some over-arching responsibility for easy-read documents?

www.gov.uk/government/people/sarah-newton

R0 - it will come under the Cabinet Office as I think (though could be wrong) that they have oversight of central professional government publishing and communication services

Bit behind the thread, but Bowl that Mitchell and Webb clip is gold (and Webb is out and proud GC!)

OlennasWimple I was thinking more from the responsibility for the groups that this guide is primarily intended.

Easy read has stylistic good practise but there are also additional responsibilities in terms of the content.