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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Mumsnet moderation - response to yesterday's feedback

571 replies

JustineMumsnet · 04/07/2018 18:22

Hi all,

I’ve had lots of contact about about yesterday’s thread which has now maxed out so thought I’d put a response here.

First of all our guidelines absolutely do allow people to discuss biology and science. And we absolutely see why some of Penny Mordaunt’s words yesterday would raise concerns amongst those with a gender critical POV - so maybe it wasn’t, in retrospect, the best moment to make a point. Nonetheless we do believe that as a rule Spartacus-type threads are not conducive to a constructive debate and that trans people would be likely to feel attacked and/or excluded by them.

To state the obvious and as I’ve said before, this is an extremely polarised debate in which even the most basic terms are disputed, so if we’re going to have it here we’re in danger of being attacked from all sides (which we are in actual fact). Nonetheless, we think it’s important, so we’ll keep at it and we’ll keep trying to moderate it to make it as open and civil as we possibly can.

You should also know that I’m due to meet soon with Penny Mordaunt to discuss “any ideas you may have on the women and equalities agenda’' and I will of course reflect the strong opinion of many Mumsnetters wrt to this issue and ask her to do a webchat too.

Thanks, as ever, for your input.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
bd67th · 05/07/2018 00:35

@SarahAr Watch this documentary about obstetric fistula and then tell me that I'm "cherry-picking" when I say that sex matters, women are oppressed because of their sex, and gender identity is irrelevant to oppression.

Ereshkigal · 05/07/2018 00:43

This polling by YouGov shows only 27% of 18-24yo in favour of self-id compared to 18% in all age ranges. So nowhere near a majority

That question is conflating both self ID under the EA (which exists) with self ID under the GRA (which doesn't). You can already get a passport with a doctors note. Quite disingenuous. However the poll result speaks for itself.

Elletorro · 05/07/2018 00:46

Of course contrary views can be expressed.

But if you are talking on a board which examines socio-political power dynamics then you need to expect your view to be dissected, discussed and possibly debunked.

leyat · 05/07/2018 00:54

@justinemumsnet your life would have been harder if you were trans because you are already a woman and deal with that and would continue to, but if you were trans you would also be punished for non-conformity (you will already in lots of ways, none of us are a stereotype). But we all gender non-conform in various ways and we all get punished for it, however the only group with the social power to have the measured and redressed is trans people, so in many ways if you identified as trans you would find it easier than others who gender non-conform but don't have the same power. Like lesbians, for eg. And yes dysphoria would be distressing, but so is any distressing psychological condition, and again those are not particular to being trans.

So being trans does not form a specific basis for oppression, trans people are not oppressed by & for another group of people, they do not face systemic, structural subjugation; having some feelings about identity does not condition oppression. It's non conformity that is the issue, and just because trans people benefit from having their non-conformity addressed in a way the rest of us don't, it doesn't mean that this is unique to trans people. It isn't.

Sex, class and race are the axis' of structural oppression, just fyi.

*LangCleg: "But both sets of polling carried out are consistent across all age groups. It's just not true, what Justine said. What is true is that the only political notice taken of young adult voices is drawn from the student politics/highly privileged environment and that does have a strong postmodern (and thus pro-transactivism) slant.

Student politics does not represent the majority voice of young people... think this age thing is just one more sexist trope. Like all the others"*

You hit the nail on the head there. The elevation of privileged middle class young voices is why there is such a skewed picture of how young people feel. The age thing ultimately comes down to both sexism and classism imo. I hope Justine listens more to the working class women here, of which I am one. We are extremely marginalised, we have so much to lose, and I really hope this can be one place where our voices are heard.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 05/07/2018 01:00

SisyphusWasGenderCritical

Flowers
Ereshkigal · 05/07/2018 01:05

You hit the nail on the head there. The elevation of privileged middle class young voices is why there is such a skewed picture of how young people feel.

Yes and their greater presence and reach on social media such as Twitter.

Datun · 05/07/2018 01:06

Sisyphus I'm really sorry that happened to you and your siblings.

Justine, The reason I started to use mumsnet in the first place was because of a tricky teenage son.

I googled something like 'teenage son - wits end' and got mumsnet. I vaguely knew what it was and thought I'd give it a recce.

The thread, which came up, was entitled something like teenage son, wits end, and had the opening poster saying her son had just punched her in the mouth, stolen her handbag and walked out leaving her bloodied, on the floor.

My son flunked his A-levels and held a party while we were away.

I slowly closed the thread without posting, feeling eye-openingly humbled.

That experience has been repeated here time without number.

I have inwardly speculated as to why so many women here have had devastating experiences, mostly, it has to be said, at the hands of men.

Is it the nature of the website? Is it the nature of online communication?

Or, given there are 12 million women on here, is it just life?

I have concluded, that it doesn't matter why. There are just too many.

I don't know if you will take any notice of this, but given this is your website, I can't help wanting to beg you to just take an hour so to read it.

Please. Just read what women are saying. If you're going to speak to Penny Mordaunt, at least give yourself the opportunity to represent, accurately, what the women are saying.

But far, far more importantly, why they are saying it. And why there are so many of them.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3291425-Gender-Critical-Lurkers?msgid=79176391#79176391

R0wantrees · 05/07/2018 01:20

Lisa Muggeridge commented yesterday on this thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3284251-Lisa-Muggeridge-Suspended-by-Twitter-and-Quoting-her-breaches-MN-Guidelines

"In 2010 I realised that austerity would hit me and my peers from the Looked After system and lone parents very hard and that the implications were serious. I was invited to speak at oxfordgef.yolasite.com/blog/lisa-ansell and thought this was a movement to fight austerity. THAT is what they said. I was invited to speak at Netroots, a Labour, trade union funded event, paid for with my trade union dues. I didnt know that I wouldnt be allowed to talk about the political consensus on the systems I was discussing or that my speech there would lead to me being targeted by people with actual power.

The elite brats who are STILL at the heart of Corbynism, and the Labour Party, and editors, all went out of their way. I had stalkers validated, I stopped counting harassment on twitter if it lasted less than 7 hours, I eventually stopped counting if it lasted less than a day then I stopped counting when it hit 100 episodes.

The elite brats around Oxford University and Labour when I discussed protocol for social workers on strikle days if they had court hearings, call me a scab. The entire British left, really. My daughter not safe at my house not once, not twice, but repeatedly. Threats, rape threats. This is for discussing wat was in that speech at oxford univresity. That speech would now get me called TERF.

I have been defamed, abused, threatened, had my house targeted, and had major institutions push this. I didnt choose austerity, I didnt choose poverty and I didnt choose to understand these systems but what I did do was record tribalism being manufactured to hide consensus and I didnt stop. And I did this because the parasitic dynamic between the left and women like me can be easily broken if the host says they are aware of the situation, and the parasite behaves abusively openly. Addition of social dimension to political communication meant this was possible for the first time.

I also kept an eye on the crisis I was discussing because I knew and can demonstrate I knew 8 years ago we were heading into institutional redefinition. I crowdfunded tuition to the LSE to their new Inequalities Institute NOT because I wanted a masters, although I do, because they would give me an overview of how elite institutions viewed the institutions I was familiar with and I could see and assess the distance in light of what I had experienced.

I was correct there is no way for them at this level to know about these systems cos they developed from the ground up and the last time had the opportunity to redefine institutions(you cant just do it you have to wait for crisis) the changes to family, understanding of abuse, loooked after children, didnt exist. These systems have evolved through crisis and THIS crisis will merely consolidate them. I know this and say this. Which is why I have to be silenced.

This all sounds like I have loads of resources. I dont. I have complex ptsd, I live on less than 150 a week,. that transphobia list made me unemployable so even with an LSE masters I am unemployed. My daughter hasnt had new clothes from me in over a year and her dad has bought them so she doesnt wear clothes with holes. I wear clothes with holes. So if I am completely powerless, the crisis I am describing is happening in front of us, why do I need to be constantly targeted, erased and why is it now illegal on Mumsnet to discuss what I am discussing?

Because what I am discussing ALL mothers know. Regarding 'deadnaming'. The law is actually clear. We have laws around abusive behaviour which require that ALL mothers are literate in identifying abusive behaviour and in that instance we are ALL required to disregard the identity of that person and focus on their behaviour. An abusive male is correctly being identified in terms of gender and sex and in line with the law. An abusive male does not become a victim because I didnt consider his inner identity. I will not be forced, as someone who has had abusive relationship be forced to say things which are not true out of fear. I will NOT do that.

I am sorry Mumsnet feel that I am so terrible, and so awful but I think you will find I havent done anything but injured the identity of narcissists.

My twitter account was under constant attack. It had 1400 followers. Thats not a media following. I talked about breadmaking, and moaning about not doing housework and on the days where I was stuck I talked to my friends. I never used it to broad cast, I never asked to be INVITED by major political parties and newspapers to be their novelty pov and I have done nothing to deserve eight years of abuse putting me and my daughter at risk.

BUt fine I am clearly something dangerous and scary. I dont have enough money to get through the week, some days I dont eat, I am skinny, I am probably going to end up not well. But yah. Am bullying the GUardian, the elite brats around Corbyn and trans activists with more money than God. Course I am.

If I hadnt record that who would have? My trade union? The Guardian? Did Mumsnet know how many of their membres were not eating during austerity? I have NEVER pursued a media career, I dont even have a background where I could be a public figure because me and sister have agreements over what our kids know about our childhoods, so am no threat to anyone. Am not in competition. And yet me saying this terrifying to political parties, newspapers and people with power? Why. I think we all know why."

R0wantrees · 05/07/2018 02:12

LisaMuggeridge concludes:

"Before I go I want to share the promise I made when I realised equality would be rolled back in 2010. I said that before my daughter was 18 the blindspot that did this would be corrected and it will. It will be corrected by christmas and it will not happen again.

Mumsnet can delete this thread and any other but they might want to ask themselves why they didnt notice equality being rolled back for women like us at all, why they didnt see this coming and why they are facilitating the relentless abuse and harassment of a mother on behalf of people with power. Is that really the brand they wanted?

Clearly. I wont be posting again. But i will be fulfilling that promise and its looking like it will be done before my daughter is 12. By the time this year is done that blindspot will have been corrcted in academia, media, politics and policy making. I will be making sure of it.

Oh and bespin you didnt notice I had acounts lined up. They are not me. You know exactly who set them up. Women know how to recognise narcissistic abuse. Your ability to make things up about me is enviable. Did you think you would be spending your time waiting for mention of a single mum you dont know to tell lies about her because she spoke about poverty she lived and systems she knew? Dear Mumsnet. Wont be posting again. At all. Horrified by this. Horrified."

NewbieSpartacus · 05/07/2018 02:25

Oh Sisyphus I'm so sorry. Thank you for your courage.

Monty27 · 05/07/2018 02:33

This issue has been blown out of the water
People don't accept that I smoke for example. Tough shit I am who I am.
A heterosexual female.
Why blame Mumsnet for smoker haters?
A bad analogy I know but I am astonished at how far transgenders have gone.
Find another place?
Or maybe a sub Mumsnet where you can all chat amongst yourselves?
I couldn't give a toss what people are. I like everyone mostly but this mutiny type shit is unnecessary.

MipMipMip · 05/07/2018 02:54

I feel I can see the future. The timeline may be a bit wrong but the points will be there.

Self ID passes. Cue footage of "brave" transgender individuals excitedly posting the form to change gender.

Footage of previously male prisoners being driven to women's prison.

Court case as government is sued for keeping "women"* in a male prsion.

Silence on women and children harmed when someone abuses the bloody huge gateway with flashing neon signs loophole and changed gender purely to harm women/children .

Crime statistics massively change. Planning for controlling crime severely hampered.

Rise in cancers associated with single sex as notifications being incorrectly sent due to recording gender instead of sex and campaigns that are unclear to low literate/limited English individuals.

Women's healthcare goes to pot. Known annocdotidly only as stats say percentages remain unaffected.

Increase in violence against lesbians for not choosing lady-dick.

Backlash against all trans because of minority who use Self ID to abuse vulnerable individuals. Media waking up.

Court cases against bigots who misgender, deadname etc.

Medics sued for teenager being steralised by puberty blockers. Medics hung out to dry as rogue few.

Self ID problems become clear. Public want to know how it happened. MPs make clear this could not have been foreseen. Too late to take back so measures put in place, leading to problems for all and increased backlash.

How am I doing so far?

*Please note speech marks used for clarity.

MipMipMip · 05/07/2018 02:59

Oops forgot the rise in mental health problems for trans and gay/lesbian people.

Pratchet · 05/07/2018 03:31

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3297145-Man-menstruating?pg=3&order=

Seriously @justinemumset? Where were the mods?

thebewilderness · 05/07/2018 04:07

I have been thinking about this off and on all day and have come to the inescapable conclusion that the word 'debate' is part of the problem. I have never liked the word or the activity it names. I prefer discussion, because it is a loose and open exchange of ideas between people rather than the pro and con, I'm right and you're wrong, of debate.
Some people apply Humpty Dumpty rules to words, and it seems to me that is what has happened to the poor unfortunate word 'debate' here on FWR.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 05/07/2018 05:48

After they pumped his stomach, he descended into the finest display of DARVO I had ever seen until I saw the tactics of the TRA agenda

Yes Sis Flowers - many of us recognise the abuse of the change sex lobby for what it is - except MN - so why is that? Why do MN and Justine constantly centre discussions around the change sex lobby and not around women?

Justine I don't know you. I find the lack of leadership by you and MN regarding women and children's safeguarding inexplicable on many levels - as a mother to another mother, as a businesswoman to another businesswoman and from a business perspective, why wouldn't your organisation want to increase its brand awareness and be vocal around safeguarding women and children? That would be congruent with your brand positioning. Punishing women isn't. But each time the opportunity comes around to take a lead, it's ducked and the FWR board is branded unacceptable in some way. Those dynamics are familiar to anyone who knows abuse.

So I am saying here to you, your policies are harming women on here - so why doesn't that concern you?

My next question to you is - why wouldn't a mother be concerned about proposed legislative changes that put women and children in harms' way?

My last question to you is - why wouldn't you want to operate congruently with the MN brand you established plus expand your business and brand awareness?

bigoldscaredycat · 05/07/2018 06:12

I too had secretly hoped that behind the scenes Justine was GC and standing up for us.

I think from her comments last night we can safely infer that this is not the case.

I literally cannot believe her privileged comment about trans people having it harder.

She does not get it at all, and is most certainly not on our side.

I dread to think how her conversation with Penny M will go. ‘Yes, transphobia IS a problem on Mumsnet. But we have some great young mods who are helping us to stamp it out and we’re banning the wrong thinkers who insist on posting hurtful biological facts repeatedly and showing solidarity with other wrong thinking posters’.

She has told us what her position is and we should believe her.

Moonkissedlegs · 05/07/2018 07:36

I usually walk away from internet spaces that I don't feel support my world view.

Can I ask you why you feel so strongly that Mumsnet needs to change and bend to your point of view?

Because a website that was started by women, and is predominantly for women, had to be 'kind' and 'nice' and 'caring' and 'inclusive'. Especially of men.

Floisme · 05/07/2018 07:37

Justine I'm sure there are some trans people who find life a zillion times harder than I do. And I do have compassion for them. But if they cannot face women talking about their own biology then, as you yourself would say, I don't think Mumsnet is the place for them.

This site is for talking about what it's like being a woman. I can understand if some transwomen find that painful but I'm not prepared to stop talking just because they don't like it.

I appreciate that you're still prepared to come on here and talk to us. I can't begin to imagine the pressure you must be under and I have a lot of time for you. But if you think you can keep a lid on this then I'm afraid you're mistaken. I've not read the whole thread properly so apologies if I'm repeating but at least one poster on FWR has openly said that they want to see Mumsnet shut down - not just the feminist boards, the whole site. Do you know why? Because their ex wife was a mumsnetter. That's what you're up against.

numptynuts · 05/07/2018 07:55

Transpeople have it harder?

Than who?

Women?

Lottapianos · 05/07/2018 08:06

'She does not get it at all, and is most certainly not on our side. '

Clearly, and that's bloody depressing. The suggestion that trans women have it 'a zillion times' harder than women do left me pretty speechless. I have had a comment deleted on another thread for quoting and agreeing with another poster who stated biological fact, and im sure I'm just one of many many posters in the same situation. I feel incredibly isolated, hurt and betrayed, like so many of us.

vickyjgo · 05/07/2018 08:06

Reading the responses to this post by the moderator just reminds me why trans gender people find this forum so difficult. Transgender Mums are totally alienated here - not welcome at all :-( I don't think mumsnet has anything constructive to add to this discussion.

RedToothBrush · 05/07/2018 08:13

The loss of her husband left Pankhurst with new responsibilities and a significant amount of debt. She moved the family to a smaller house at 62 Nelson Street, resigned from the Board of Guardians, and was given a paid position as Registrar of Births and Deaths in Chorlton. This work gave her more insight into the conditions of women in the region. She wrote in her autobiography: "They used to tell me their stories, dreadful stories some of them, and all of them pathetic with that patient and uncomplaining pathos of poverty." Her observations of the differences between the lives of men and women, for example in relation to illegitimacy, reinforced her conviction that women needed the right to vote before their conditions could improve. In 1900 she was elected to the Manchester School Board and saw new examples of women suffering unequal treatment and limited opportunities.

Women's suffrage depended on middle class women getting their heads out of their arses and realising that even though they didn't have political power they had a voice that other women didn't, and that they needed to help other women be heard.

Emmeline Pankhurst, was fighting for her own rights but the plight of those women who were less privileged was what drove her.

Honestly on waking up this morning I'm still angry at your staggering short sightedness and how unaware that you are that your own experience has been so much better than others.

It's almost like women and young people who are not like you socially and economically are invisible to you. Even though you give many a space to talk.

Where do you think the term 'liberal elite' comes from? It's this blindness.

Wake up Justine.

I have to say I agree with others on this thread: how can you represent us to Penny Mordaunt? You can't. And I find that extremely worrying.

You are not representing the views or concerns of a huge number of your users, because they didn't even pop into your head when you thought of disadvantage.

You only thought of transpeople.

Disadvantaged and abused women are not even on your radar.

Your flippant and off the cuff remark which dismissed so many of them, says just so much.

Which is why this WHOLE debate is a farce and why it's exposing the enormous privilege that the trans community DO have.

Who speaks for those women in this day and age?

WHO?

Perhaps you would like to take someone from MN who does get it with you if you are that incapable of looking beyond your own bubble of experience? Cos it looks very much like you'll be helping with throwing women under the bus in a complete whitewash and stitchup by being the face of MN and therefore allowing others to say 'oh well women DID have a say', when that could not be further from the truth.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 05/07/2018 08:22

Transgender Mums

Unfortunately i have no idea who you mean by this

But I completely accept that some transgender people may not feel welcome here...there are probably loads of other people that dont as well

LangCleg · 05/07/2018 08:22

It occurred to me that if there were many trans people using MN for its primary purpose - parenting issues - they'd have a fair few threads on the LGBT parents board - but from a very quick look that doesn't seem to be the case. And you know what? If there were, we wouldn't be over there derailing their threads, would we?

No. We wouldn't. Because we are not abusive people. We are women representing women's interests.

Justine - why do you allow your feminist board to be patrolled by walking, talking embodiments of male pattern abuse as delineated by the Duluth wheel? Why have you ignored every single one of the many suggestions to give the mods training on identifying this behaviour? £12 per person at the Freedom Programme. Surely women are worth that much to you?