Mumsnet moderation - response to yesterday's feedback

[JustineMumsnet]

Hi all,

I’ve had lots of contact about about yesterday’s thread which has now maxed out so thought I’d put a response here.

First of all our guidelines absolutely do allow people to discuss biology and science. And we absolutely see why some of Penny Mordaunt’s words yesterday would raise concerns amongst those with a gender critical POV - so maybe it wasn’t, in retrospect, the best moment to make a point. Nonetheless we do believe that as a rule Spartacus-type threads are not conducive to a constructive debate and that trans people would be likely to feel attacked and/or excluded by them.

To state the obvious and as I’ve said before, this is an extremely polarised debate in which even the most basic terms are disputed, so if we’re going to have it here we’re in danger of being attacked from all sides (which we are in actual fact). Nonetheless, we think it’s important, so we’ll keep at it and we’ll keep trying to moderate it to make it as open and civil as we possibly can.

You should also know that I’m due to meet soon with Penny Mordaunt to discuss “any ideas you may have on the women and equalities agenda’' and I will of course reflect the strong opinion of many Mumsnetters wrt to this issue and ask her to do a webchat too.

Thanks, as ever, for your input.

Transgenderism is being sold to the general public as the 'Last Great Overlooked Area of Social Justice Reform'.

Really? Why then are people who once swallowed this line (uncritically) now joining the ranks of the 'gender critical'? It is not going the other way, GC are not defecting over to the trans camp.

Ten years ago, there were but a handful of GC radical feminists online, now those numbers have swelled. If this was a legit SJ movement, more feminists would be running over to support T, but it is quite the opposite. Women who were once sympathetic to trans have realised, for their own sakes, the full implications of erasing the categories 'woman' and 'female'.

sisyphus thank you for sharing your experiences, I’m sorry for what you went through

Justine can you explain how someone trans is more oppressed than Sisyphus? Or more oppressed than the girl babies drowned at birth due purely to their sex?
Or the young girls trafficked into sexual slavery to satiate the men who need a hole to fuck and don’t give a shit how young the girl is??

I could go on. But I want to remind you that for the majority of us on MN it’s biology that first brought us here - for me it was for help with breastfeeding, subsequently conception, miscarriage, pregnancy, advice about babies, toddlers, period problems.
Then Feminist boards caught my eye and reminded me of how important it is to be able to talk about the effects of biological sex.
All of these topics are dependent on being able to discuss biology. Make no mistake, once the TRAs finish decimating the feminist boards then it will be breastfeeding, pregnancy and anything else about biology because it doesn’t suit their agenda of TWAW. They will not stop till MN is finished. FFS on TRA poster even stated that their aim was to shut down MN completely!! It’s all there in black and white. Wake up before it’s too late

I do polls. I understand them. And a really important part of them is how you ask the question. So young people, are transwomen women?

Asked in a group/identifiable : yes, absolutely.

Asked anonymously: maybe

Asked after explanation of GC viewpoint: ??? No one knows because to ask the question is seen as bigotry.

Don't take stats at face value. And don't dismiss the young by thinking they are all the same. They are nuanced too. And will be more so as they get older.

I'm not denying sexism (obviously) but I honestly think if I'd been trans it my life would have been about a zillion times harder.

It isn't about you. Read! For the love of God. Read your website.

Sisyphus I'm really sorry that happened to you and your siblings.

sisyphus (I hope you've got plenty of vases).

I imagine it was pretty tough writing all that.

It is really important for those of us who are more fortunate (me, and Justine included) to understand the difficulties that real people face. So thank you.

But 85% also said that using MN helps them have a better understanding of other people's lives and choice. That's the thing we're trying to preserve here.

@JustineMumsnet, sadly this is not the case. For example, it is abundantly clear to any lawyer that the proposed GRA reform does not affect women's sports for simple reason that women's sports are excluded from both the GRA and the EA. However, that is not the impression that you get from MNs. Reading MN you get a very distorted view of trans issues and also feminism for that matter. GC feminists are not the only type of feminist.

First you cherry pick the issue "biology". And then you cherry pick the biology - chromosomes. Don't think anyone is alienated by talking about chromosomes once - people are alienated by threads saying "I am Spartacus - coz biology" every day. What chromosomes you have - says nothing about trans or more broadly women's rights.

Also to add @JustineMumsnet there are many women affected by gynaecological cancer. Some of them younger women. Gyny cancer outcomes in the UK are worse than in comparable countries and awareness is low.
I was diagnosed during IVF treatment, by chance & this likely saved my life. The neccesary sugery means that my partner and I will not have children of our own.
The voices of younger women who experience early menopause or hysterectomies are rarely heard. Their experiences should not be appropriated by male-born people
The lobbying of CRUK and Gyny Cancer charities by TRAs to change the language used in the name of inclusion would have serious consequences for women in the future.

this is about biological reality and why sex matters

‘If you’re not a liberal when you’re 25, you have no heart. If you’re not a conservative by the time you’re 35, you have no brain.’

A well known quote (although no one knows who first said it). However you feel politically I think it demonstrates pretty well that views change. How will all the woke people feel in ten years when females no longer exist, just men, "women" and non-men?

My eyes have rolled so far back into my head.

But that is how we recognise each other.

Under his eye.

First you cherry pick the issue "biology"

Seriously, Justine, do you agree with that poster that women being concerned about matters of biology is 'cherry picking'?

This polling by YouGov shows only 27% of 18-24yo in favour of self-id compared to 18% in all age ranges. So nowhere near a majority.
Apols if pic is too small

Men 1
Women 0

This is our reality AGAIN

You know what- the I am Spartacus threads make me feel safe, they make me feel like other woman get it and I am not alone.

The make me feel I am not alone in being scared that my voice, that other voices of people like me who were born with a uterus and a vagina and XX chromosomes will not be totally silenced and overlooked. They make me feel like my daughters will still have voices who advocate them and do not force them to share space with children with penises.

You are bowing to a tiny minority who want woman to put up and shut up and it is shameful and cowardly.

As a website, you still allow suicide threat threads, don't you?

These are far more dangerous and triggering than any other kind of thread- there is a real risk of these triggering "copy-cat" suicides. This is proven.

And yet you still expect users with mental health issues to avoid these themselves.

But TRAs are special? Why? Is it because they have penises?

And then you cherry pick the biology - chromosomes.

I happened to be chatting to a (straight white male) biologist the other day, so I asked him for his take on the trans debate and sex and gender. The first word out of his mouth was 'chromosomes'. So I don't think it's cherry-picking to start with chromosomes.

There are (lesbian) biologists and sociologists who argue for a more complex approach, and I think there's some merit to their argument. But still, chromosomes are where most people start thinking about what male and female mean.

If it's alienating to be surprised that people believe what they've been taught in school, that's unfortunate - but I'd suggested that engaging in discussion is a more appropriate approach than #nodebate.

Sisyphus i hope you are ok after posting that, i am so sorry for what you went/are still going through

Justine there are school girls bunking off school when they have their periods because they no longer have single sex toilets. In the uk. In 2018.
A MNer teacher explained that when filling out the standard risk assessment forms for an overnight trip she was told NOT to record the fact that the overnight accommodation would be mixed sex (due to children who identify & were treated as the other sex) as a risk.

Are there places or situations where you think being single sex matters? It's not going to be single sex if any man can self identify as a women or woman self id as a man.

Also, biological sex matters for so many reasons- especially for women but for everyone.

Biological sex shapes our lived experience.

Girls grow up facing sexual harassment and uncomfortable comments because of their biological sex.

They are made to feel ashamed of their bodies, to be covered up, to look a certain way, to fit a certain standard, from and extremely young age.

The first time I was sexually harassed, I was eleven.

Girls grow into teenagers who get periods, who grow breasts- who deal with discomfort and embarrassment, and sometimes serious health problems relating to this.

They worry about getting pregnant and how this might affect their life chances and choices. They put artificial hormones into their body, and they make plans for what they would do if they accidentally got pregnant. They worry about safe and easy access to abortion.

They face social pressures to look, be and act a certain way. They face not being taken as seriously as their male peers. They read articles in the press talking about girls doing better in their exams or in uni acceptances- but it's phrased like this shows exams are getting easier or something is going wrong. They're made to feel less than.

They stop doing sport, for a wide variety of reasons. This may have health consequences further down the line.

They grow into young women, who may face sexual discrimination in the work place. They may worry about having their first smear test, or pregnancy, or contraception.

They date, fearfully- afraid of male violence and being blamed for it. They are far, far more likely to be sexually assaulted by a man.

They are judged for their life choices, no matter what they do.

In the society we live in, a huge number of aspects of life are shaped by biological sex. A transwoman's lived experience is totally different to mine- I would never try to speak for them. I do not believe they have the right to speak for me, or to silence me. Biological sex matters.

Mumsnet is a really special site for me as a young woman. It has made me feel it's ok to be a feminist, ok to walk away from a less than perfect relationship, given me all kinds of support and advice about my career. Made me feel safer about standing up to sexual harassment. Made me go and get my first smear test when I was putting it off. Helped me get my pill brand changed when I was suffering side affects. All these things are affected by my biological sex. And having a safe space to discuss them matters so much.

Justine, I have long hoped that behind the scenes you were rooting for women, and that your neutral stance was a play to keep mumsnet alive and in so doing allow the rest of us to keep the conversation going.
I hoped you were making a strategic decision to take heat for your neutrality from both sides as the price of letting us say what you want to, but cannot.

But increasingly, it has taken more and more effort to believe this, in light of your decisions around staffing, hosting misogynists, and language censorship.

I'm glad mumsnet has held this line for this long. The impact has been immeasurable. So for this I am grateful.

But woman to woman, I'm heartsore.
You don't get it. The magnitude of this issue.
It isn't about changing rooms or certificates. It's not about empathy for minorities, and everyone having an equal and valid claim on womanhood.

We are about to become the first generation in centuries to erase recognition of the female sex - the actual female biological sex - from our statutes and laws.
There are 33 million biological females in this country. And we are on the verge of evaporating wherever we were once referenced in writing. And neutrality will be how it comes to pass.

Think about this.
The only recourse to our own rights will be if we lie and accept the 'psychological identity' assigned to us, shared with men. We are on the cusp of rewriting female as an invisible feeling.

Has there been a denial of the existence of such a physical, tangible class of people on such a monumental scale before? 33 million of us. The female sex. Removed.

You're a woman, Justine, as am I. We share our sex. Our physiology, not our psychology. This is what we have in common.

Someone wrote about going down with us, fighting.

I wish you would. Because the female sex is facing an unprecedented crisis of legal recognition. And it will be cold comfort knowing that you stayed neutral in the battle over who gets to be recognised as female, when that right has passed, irrevocably, from female hands into male ones.

The time for neutrality has drawn to a close. It really is time to fight for the truth, whether it hurts or not.

SarahAr can I ask kindly if you're also focusing on Reddit and kiwifarms in your appeal that places are alienating, and campaigning in those places against anything that you'd describe as 'alienating'?

Don't think anyone is alienated by talking about chromosomes once - people are alienated by threads saying "I am Spartacus - coz biology" every day

This is a parenting site, called Mumsnet. From what I've experienced here over more than a decade of being on it is that people with different views and different chromosomes are welcomed if it's respectful. It's been a great ride, learning from other perspectives, not always adult human female ones, but when it boils down to the essence of it, this is a female space..

I'm sorry if that annoys you, but I'm not sorry really.

If we really get down to reality, 'Mumsnet' and 'mums' issues are driven by that niggly problem of chromosomes. We wouldn't be here in all our glory of being mums/not being muns/infertility/secondary infertility etc.

Should people attack and question the Morning Star website because talking about socialism alienates people who don't quite it into the 'socialist' box?

Shoud people attack and question the Football365 website because they alienate those of who like netball and feel excluded from the debate?

I usually walk away from internet spaces that I don't feel support my world view.

Can I ask you why you feel so strongly that Mumsnet needs to change and bend to your point of view?

I'm so disappointed to read this & particularly Justine's reply - a zillion times!

Truly shocking. People stating biological facts shouldn't be damned for that.

It must be remembered that there are many trans people who don't support the TRA agenda & who see it as damning to their situation.

I feel so hopeless & bleak for the future - under his eye indeed.

Sisyphus

It occurred to me that if there were many trans people using MN for its primary purpose - parenting issues - they'd have a fair few threads on the LGBT parents board - but from a very quick look that doesn't seem to be the case. And you know what? If there were, we wouldn't be over there derailing their threads, would we?

We also want to be inclusive and have different and diverse opinion on Mumsnet. However strongly you feel about this issue you have to admit there's an alternative view that is also quite widespread. We want Mumsnet to be a place where contrary views can be expressed.

Would it not be possible to have an additional board?

I haven't explored MN that much but think there are boards for teachers as well as boards more focussed on the parents and carers of school children.
There's an infertility board in the parenting section.
There's a vegan board in Feed the World

I'm sure there must be many other examples here which allow for contrary views to be expressed.

They don't have to neccessarily always be on the same thread on one board FWR chat.