Mumsnet moderation - response to yesterday's feedback

[JustineMumsnet]

Hi all,

I’ve had lots of contact about about yesterday’s thread which has now maxed out so thought I’d put a response here.

First of all our guidelines absolutely do allow people to discuss biology and science. And we absolutely see why some of Penny Mordaunt’s words yesterday would raise concerns amongst those with a gender critical POV - so maybe it wasn’t, in retrospect, the best moment to make a point. Nonetheless we do believe that as a rule Spartacus-type threads are not conducive to a constructive debate and that trans people would be likely to feel attacked and/or excluded by them.

To state the obvious and as I’ve said before, this is an extremely polarised debate in which even the most basic terms are disputed, so if we’re going to have it here we’re in danger of being attacked from all sides (which we are in actual fact). Nonetheless, we think it’s important, so we’ll keep at it and we’ll keep trying to moderate it to make it as open and civil as we possibly can.

You should also know that I’m due to meet soon with Penny Mordaunt to discuss “any ideas you may have on the women and equalities agenda’' and I will of course reflect the strong opinion of many Mumsnetters wrt to this issue and ask her to do a webchat too.

Thanks, as ever, for your input.

I've not had access to my computer for a while and I can't read MN properly on my mobile device because of a recent weird formatting problem so I'm having trouble following the recent modding changes and events, but I do find it disappointing and disturbing that MN has seemingly sold out natal women, if we are still allowed to Self identify as that. Still Spartacus.

The spartacus threads are great. I hope people simply ignore what Justine said about them not being conductive etc. Bollocks to that. Like we give a fuck, honestly.

That question is conflating both self ID under the EA (which exists) with self ID under the GRA (which doesn't). You can already get a passport with a doctors note. Quite disingenuous. However the poll result speaks for itself.

Yes. And even given that, we are at 18% in support of self-ID (and only 27% of young people). A few months ago, this figure was 25% (see Wings Over Scotland). The public is becoming more aware. And it does not like what it sees.

Support is plummeting.

We risk a right wing backlash. Does Mumsnet really want to add to the chances of such a thing, right at the moment the eye of the public is turning to this issue?

You hit the nail on the head there. The elevation of privileged middle class young voices is why there is such a skewed picture of how young people feel. The age thing ultimately comes down to both sexism and classism imo. I hope Justine listens more to the working class women here, of which I am one. We are extremely marginalised, we have so much to lose, and I really hope this can be one place where our voices are heard.

Yes. Another working class woman here. Despite all the snide ageism directed at us from the extremist transactivists, we feminists are the only ones speaking up for the most marginalised women: in refuges, prisons, locked mental health wards. And this most bourgeois of political movements - with some of the most hyper-privileged people in the country appropriating a marginalised identity - has the effrontery to call us middle class and out of touch?

It gives me the bloody rage.

I'm not denying sexism (obviously) but I honestly think if I'd been trans my life would have been about a zillion times harder.

I, like many others, have been thinking about this statement over and over since reading it. And trying to reply honestly to it without going over the guideline.

Now, i DO believe that some people were born in the wrong body.

However those mainly people are not those that appropriate a different sex for whatever reason.

I worked with teenagers and young adults who had profound, and multiply disabilities; who couldn't walk, talk or in some cases, communicate with much more than a raised eyebrow or a smile.

These people, faced with the absolute most humiliating, frustrating, unfair life and prospects; were born in the wrong body.

I taught a young man who had cerebal palsy, could only move his right arm, was deaf and hadn't learnt to talk, who was fiercely political and on point with his opinions and who SHOULD have been at uni studying politics and the like; he can't even pass an exam because he cannot communicate enough in the allowable time to be able to formulate his thoughts into an essay format and he hasn't been taught the skills that these young people take for granted.

These people wanting to stop women from talking, from meeting, from even discussing things on a forum without putting their oar in; they aren't doing it because they think these women are wrong...they are doing it because they know they are right and it is the only way of stopping other people [with their arms up their backs] from seeing that other people also know what is right - THE FIRST THING ANY ABUSER DOES IS ISOLATE THEIR VICTIM FROM OTHER PEOPLE WHO CALL OUT THEIR ABUSE.

I am astonished that you cannot see this.

Another point:

The twisting of language most affects women who are disadvantaged.

For example, not everyone is educated enough to understand if they have a cervix or not. Don't take it for granted that they do.

I remember distinctly the girl in my year who when comparing notes after our GSCE dual science exam said she put "the penis goes into the anus" when talking about reproduction. She got rinsed for it. This was at a good middle class school. But the point remains, not everyone understands words much beyond 'woman' to describe biological functions.

And if we are no longer allowed to use other words, and define ourselves as women along biological lines, then they also can not describe their abuse.

Taking offence at words, takes second place to the function of needing words for the protection of women who have a limited capacity either through lack of education or through oppression to speak or understand.

Words have power. It's easy to take for granted if you are comfortable.

I'm so angry Justine. So so angry.

Taking that Power and Control wheel - lets look at Mumsnet.

Male Privilege - read your first post - it is all about protecting males who might be upset.
Coercion and threats - we'll tell your advertisers how mean your feminism board is to us and how transphobic it is.
Intimidation - we will force you to not use certain phrases or we will take you to court
Isolation - silence these women [and some men, and some trans people] as we do not want the facts about biology getting out there
Minimising, denying and blaming - Self-Id is just a tiny change, nobody will get hurt, always been doing it anyway, just call the police if something happens
Using children - floating biased statistics around that show it is better a trans child than a dead one
Economic abuse - for MN, it's back to the advertisers and the doxxing and thetrying to get people sacked for having an opinion on biology.

It's all there, without even a huge analysis of the Wheel of Abuse - sometimes in just one thread.

Justine when you meet the MP please will you ask for clarity on the type of attacks made against trans people? When you realise that deadnaming and misgendering are "literal violence " and that questioning or objecting is "wanting all trans people to die" then the "abuse" suffered looks rather different. Not suggesting they should be abused by the way, just that some don't know what actual abuse is.

You could ask her to use accurate statistics relevant to this country too. The suicide rate one has been debunked and the murder one is from a place where trans prostitutes are being killed. Along with, you know, female prostitutes. Like I said: stats matter.

These people wanting to stop women from talking, from meeting, from even discussing things on a forum without putting their oar in; they aren't doing it because they think these women are wrong...they are doing it because they know they are right and it is the only way of stopping other people [with their arms up their backs] from seeing that other people also know what is right - THE FIRST THING ANY ABUSER DOES IS ISOLATE THEIR VICTIM FROM OTHER PEOPLE WHO CALL OUT THEIR ABUSE.

Preach. You said it so much better than I could.

You could ask her to use accurate statistics relevant to this country too. The suicide rate one has been debunked and the murder one is from a place where trans prostitutes are being killed.

O but if you do nothing else at all, please ask her to get TRAs, the main charities, media, politicians and public figures to read Samaritan's guidance about discussing suicide.

There is no doubt at all that childen & young people questioning their gender identity are vulnerable.

No doubt at all that this is a compex issue.

No doubt at all that they and their famililies need access to expert supportive services.

And no doubt at all the likely effects on this vulnerable group that the constant repetition of how high the statistics are that their group of young people will have suicide ideation / attempts / take their own life.

www.samaritans.org/media-centre/media-guidelines-reporting-suicide

there are also other specific 'groups' of young people with a shared characteristic who are at higher risk of self harm than the average. Lobbying is not done to meet their needs better on the basis of this and professionals involved with their care and support would rightly face sanction / disciplinary measures if they constantly repeated the associated risk statistics.

The twisting of language most affects women who are disadvantaged.

A million times this. Look up the average reading age in the UK. Be shocked. I think the main tabloids need a reading age of 8-9.

The users of this board are HUGELY skewed towards a more middle class educated dynamic. A bolshy dynamic. And sitting right next to us are millions of women who don’t have the confidence, education or reading ability to speak up. Their voices are important. Their health is important. Their safety and their rights are important because we are ALL united by the fact we are women. I’m from a very working class background in one of the most deprived wards in the Uk. There are SO many women being failed right now.

Even Pink/Penis news is reporting the latest poll which is that 82% of voters don't want Self ID.

These people that wouldn't report on the trans person when they were found guilty of assaulting an OAP woman at Speaker's Corner.

Or on the intimidation of Julie Bindel trying to get to a paid gig to discuss the law and potential changes - by males in black balaclavas blocking her into a corridor.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/07/03/exclusive-just-13-of-tory-voters-agree-with-governments-proposed-transgender-policy/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Anyway Justine, as we ALL know - we aren't talking to each other - we are talking to the lurkers, the ones on the sidelines who desperately want to be 'fair' and not thought of as 'meanies' - when what has happened is that women with a working knowledge of biology have been assaulted, blocked, barricaded, doxxed, reported to their employers, harassed, kicked off of twitter, silenced, abused, threatened - including a bomb threat in Hastings just a couple of weeks ago - because they are willing to speak up.

It is not about being mean, and almost certainly all of these women would happily work with trans people to campaign for their safe spaces; but not at the expense of women and girls. That is what this is all about. Women and Girls.

O and my viewpoints, since there are a wide number of issues raised are not from a 'gender critical' side or 'point of view'.

Its not helpful to reduce this to being a 'debate' with two sides.

Some of my understanding comes from biology and science, most comes from personal & professional knowledge & experience, some comes from having read feminist writers, a lot comes from having read books.

Not much comes from a single ideology.

*The twisting of language most affects women who are disadvantaged.

A million times this. Look up the average reading age in the UK. Be shocked. I think the main tabloids need a reading age of 8-9.*

The average reading age for vulnerable groups of women including those who are homeless, care-leavers, in prisons etc will be significantly lower than the national average.

They do not have access to well-funded legal, lobbying or advocacy groups.
They are being and will be directly affected.

If suicide is what concerns us, it might interest people to know that the average life expectancy of a person with autism was found in a recent study to be 54. Leading causes of premature death were epilepsy and suicide.
If preventing suicide amongst vulnerable groups is what you’re all about Justine, I’m looking forward to your new guidelines preventing anything critical or hurtful (even if true) being posted about people with autism.
Then again, maybe I won’t hold my breath,

The leading cause of suicide is depression. Gender dysphoria is comorbid in a majority of cases with depression

There are also legal concerns, not least the fact that many Local Authorities have mis-quoted and likely mis-applied the Equalities Act 2010 having replaced sex (which is one of the 9 protected characteristics) with gender / gender identity. THis will have affected policies and the application of these policies.

Will Penny Mordant please request that her colleagues with other portfolios investigate the public and statuatory services which may have done similar?

A recent violent attack at Leicester Tube station has highlighted the following serious issue.

As described by Jean Pratchet in this petition:

"British Transport Police are at present arresting males and allowing them to self-identify as female. The crime is then recorded as a female crime and reported as such to the press. An example of this was recently reported widely in the tabloid press where many were shocked to see "females" in a video allegedly repeatedly stomping on a man's head. The man suffered a broken eye socket. Two police officers also received injuries. The bodies of the suspects appear to be male. The bodies of the suspects appear to be wearing dresses and wigs. Eye witnesses have confirmed that the bodies were male. But the suspects were recorded as female because they said they were.

This is against the codes provided in the Police and Criminal Investigations Act 1984.

There is no provision in the PACE act 1984 to allow for self-identification other than at Code C and this relates only to the right to be searched by an officer of the opposite sex.

In the necessity of searching a suspect, guidelines suggest that a person arrested must be treated according to their "preferred gender". As such anyone identifying themselves as a woman must be searched by another woman. Even if they possess a penis. Even if they do not present as female. This will involve forcing female police officers to search males according to a misguided application of the Equality Act 2010.

At Code D - which is legislation for "Identification of persons by police officers" there is no such provision for self-identity or for using a "preferred gender". In fact if an intimate body search is necessary that must be preformed by a medical practitioner in order to obtain sperm and other biological information.

It seems that British Transport Police are misusing/misunderstanding the Equality Act 2010 and also misunderstanding/misapplying the provisions in the Gender Recogniton Act 2004 which refers only to the application for and use of Gender Recognition Certificates.

Suspects should be required to validate their sex as claimed upon arrest and at interview stage and certainly before a crime is reported as female to the press.

Establishing the sexed nature of crime is utterly essential to preserving the validity of crime statistics which show that most violent crime is committed by males upon other males and that most violent crime committed upon females is committed by male.

If men can simply self-identity as female against any current legal provision then no crime statistics are relevant.

We call upon the Government to commit to ensuring that the British Police are aware of the legal requirements to establish the sex of suspects. We call upon the British Government to apply the laws currently in place."

There was a tread on here (I can't remember which but I'm hoping someone will link) where a trans person was asked which rights they were being denied. I'm paraphrasing but when they eventually have an answer it was "Well, none. But we want unlimited free surgery. "

Clearly their life is a zillion times worse than mine. And I promise you mine is way way better than many of the posters here who suffered and are suffering for being female. You don't speak for me either Justine.

Perhaps Penny Mordant could watch the recent High School sprint race in the USA (linked in the tweet) & then answer Janice Turner's simple question?

"Two male-bodied trans gender runners came first and second. What do you say to the girls who train so hard but can never win? Yet can’t even say: this is not fair."

twitter.com/VictoriaPeckham/status/1004682774920523776

It is important to watch the video to the end and see the faces of the girls who come 3rd, 4th & 5th

Justine the reason the girls will never win is because of biological realities, their sex. Discussing this is not transphobic or bigoted, nor does it mean that all children and young people shouldn't be encouraged to exercise and enjoy sports. The question though is specific and we also need to be able to ask about the girls

I can't tell you how heartened I am by this thread.

Justine, I really hope that you are listening. This isn't about people like you (and, TBH, me) who have sailed through life on a wave of relative privilege. It's about the women whose voices are not heard.

The narrative around this issue is not well-served by soundbite politics. It's not easy to connect the complex interaction between self-ID and surviving abuse in 140 characters. So we don't. It's much easier to create a compelling and sympathetic narrative out of the 'brave' girl who had to go overseas to get the body she always knew she should have, than to do so for the criminal sharing a cell with a male bodied person. So that's the documentary that gets made.

Justine, unlike these women your voice IS heard. You ARE listened to. Please, please, please use your voice for those women. It's not really about pushing back against something. It's advocating for something, for people who don't have the access, who aren't listened to (and in many cases are castigated) when they try to speak out. Please.

Justine, unlike these women your voice IS heard. You ARE listened to

Exactly. I’d love to be in a position to sit down with decision makers and explain my POV. I’m articulate enough to do so but I don’t have access. You do - and that’s a huge thing.

If I was in your shoes I’d be putting together some crib notes with links/quick summaries of actual statistics etc where you can because you can bet they will try all the usual ‘but suicide’ stuff. Being able to quote facts and figures and back it up is important.

Good luck justine. I hope you get enough time with Penny to make this productive.

Meanwhile over on Aibu people are allowed to call a transgender woman a 'moron'.

Also if Penny Mordant might ask her colleagues in Westminster, Ruth Davidson, Angus Robertson, Alistair Carmichael & Richard Leonard if they are aware that there has been legislation in Scotland which has changed the definition of both 'woman' and 'female'?

I appreciate that the Government has said the reforms to GRA in Scotland are a 'devolved matter' but Westminster Scottish MPs also have a duty to represent their constituents in Westminster.

Fairplay For Women would (I am sure be able to provide assistance though I do think that it would be fair if they were paid for their consultancy)

(Background)
"Last year while we were all looking the other way and distracted by the UK government’s proposals to reform the Gender Recognition Act the word woman was stolen from us. It was sneakily done by the Scottish parliament and hidden behind a smoke screen. That smoke screen was The Gender Representation on Public Boards Bill.

The Bill introduced the ‘gender representation objective’ – a target that women should make up 50% of non-executive board membership.

The purpose of this bill was admirable. It was to help women overcome the institutional sexism we suffer due to our sex. Positive action to redress the imbalances that have arisen from centuries of historical disadvantage. It was to acknowledge the reality that institutionalised inequality and sexist attitudes stop most women from reaching their full potential in public life. Financial barriers, income inequality, the gender pay gap, sexist attitudes, gender stereotyping, women’s disproportionate share of caring responsibilities, the undervaluing of women’s paid work, and media portrayals of women, to name but a few influences, all play a role in the sexism that prevents a fair number of women being involved in public life.

But in a cruel twist of irony it was also to be the perfect trojan horse to steal the very meaning of the words woman and female from us."

fairplayforwomen.com/scottish_stole_woman/

If I was Justine I'd take you with me, bowl. Though as Mordaunt is a philosophy grad who supports homeopathy you might have your work cut out. So I'd take littlbrowndog too. And Rowan to provide references and supporting information as and when required.