Deliberate misgendering - will MN do anything to discourage it?

[SuperDandy]

I've reported a lot of posts lately for deliberate misgendering of individuals, but MN seems not to do anything about it ever.

Pick any thread you like that's relates to transgender in any way, and up pop the deliberate and persistent misgendering posters. It's bullying, and it's transphobic.

I'd really like to know what mn's position is on this.

“His mind slid away into the labyrinthine world of doublethink. To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget, whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again, and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself — that was the ultimate subtlety; consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word 'doublethink' involved the use of doublethink.”

I dont think the OP was asking MN for their stance. They know MNs stance. MN have been very clear on it. Its been posted on about a million threads which are all in the public domain. Its in their guidelines. I think the OP is part of a concerted effort to whip up the "MN is transphobic" narrative and to put pressure on them to tell us all to shutup. If the OP isnt, apologies OP, but your OP has certainly been used for that purpose.

Personally I think MN are handling it very well. As long as we refrain from calling trans activists he and refer to them by their names or initials, the debates can continue, the many reasonable trans people who have contributed to the debates in the past can continue to do so and we wont be shut up.

I am completely removed from the discussion about the erosion of women’s rights by trans community but I do have a work colleague who had M to F gender reassignment surgery before I knew her and is happily married to a man. I wouldn’t dream of referring to her as “he”. Is the view that she should be referred to as “he”?

I would be happy to call that individual she, and already call people with similar backgrounds she.

The definition of transwoman is a man who feels like a woman. I am not trans and so do not know how it feels to not be comfortable in my body, emotionally not physically at any rate. If someone else feels that discomfort, my heart goes out to them.
As to Rachel - would I call her black, and tell other black people that they should respect her identity?
I would tick black on a form if that was her reply. She passed as a biracial woman for some time so I would not have seen her differently.
I would not tell other black people that they should respect her identity as I am not black. Same as DH would never lecture to a woman as he is not female.
Should she be allowed to participate in scholarships/events etc designed for increasing participation of black people in organisations or public life? Or represent black people as their designated officer?
If she was voted in by a majority, sure. She was doing a decent job by all accounts. She was also participating at college and the only nominee for one post when she was recognisably white - there might have been eyebrows raised but she turned up and tried to fit in. How successfully, I don't know but the commitment was there.

Well HQ refuse to do anything about cissing so I can’t imagine why they would or should do anything about correctly referencing someone’s sex.

I think the view is that it's your choice what you call her.

I don't think anyone should be prosecuted if they were to call your friend he but I would think they were pretty fucking rude and would go out of my way to avoid them in the future!

I really don't think this is about the individual. We all want to live in peace and would never advocate upsetting someone over a principle.

However, that said...if your friend was silencing me about talking about my periods, or my difficulties breast feeding, or telling me that I didn't understand what womanhood was truly about. If they insisted on entering refuges, or womens groups for domestic violence, if they were a nurse that thought their status was more important than my comfort when conducting certain medical procedures then I think the word "he" would creep into my dialogue more and more...

I would not tell other black people that they should respect her identity as I am not black. Same as DH would never lecture to a woman as he is not female.

And yet there are plenty of men out there who do lecture 'TERFS' about their 'transphobia'. Owen Jones, Ralf Little, James O Brien to name a few.

It would be interesting to see if RL/JOB would be interested in a sexual relationship with an intact trans woman, or Owen Jones with a trans man with a vagina (actually we know he isn't - he said the question 'erases him as a gay man').

I believe the phrase is 'trans inclusionary in the tweets, trans exclusionary in the sheets'.

I agree that there is an issue with self ID, and I understand why some people feel passionately about it. I get that. But the India Willoughby jibes on here really shocked me, and upset me a bit if I'm honest.

I'm not disabled but if someone had body dismorphia and wanted to be in a wheelchair I would judge it was their own business. If they were to then claim they were eligible for disability benefits or wanted a grant for special equipment that was only for people with a disability then I would speak out.

It's no use deferring judgment because you're not of that group. It's society's duty to protect the vulnerable and in this case you can argue that trans rights are infringing on the rights of a vulnerable group. Why wouldn't I speak out?

I don't need a refuge but I defend the right for women to access one if needed.

I don't compete at sport but I defend the right of female athletes to compete on a level playing field.

I have never applied for an All Womens Shortlist but I understand they exist in areas where women are disproportionately unrepresented.

But the India Willoughby jibes on here really shocked me, and upset me a bit if I'm honest.

IW screamed 'let this penetrate' in the face of an 80 year old woman who had accidentally 'misgendered' IW. IW claimed IW picked a vagina out of a catalogue, as if a vagina is just something you can acquire off the self. IW looked at the Counting Dead Women website, and what IW took from that website is that it 'demonises men'.

I don't think its much of a surprise that people question what exactly it is about IW that makes IW a woman?

FabulouslyGlamorousFerret I know. I understand that much of the vitriol can be frustration at not being listened to about this whole subject but best practice in life is always to not get personal.

Don't let the few voices that you don't agree with sour you to the whole debate. Take what you agree with, challenge what you don't and form an independent opinion.

Same as DH would never lecture to a woman as he is not female

But don't you see that is exactly what some trans identified males and their male supporters are doing? If your DH today decided he felt like a woman would it be okay for him to start speaking for women? There would be no difference in reality since yesterday but feelings trump all.

I'm hugely relieved that MNHQ have eased up on the Banhammer over 'misgendering' so this is a timely reminder to me to thank them.

There was a point when posters were compelled to use language which misrepresented reality and that was a scary and miserable low point.

I'm glad there is a better balance now.

I use pronouns to accurately reflect a person's sex. Always. It is more important to me to be truthful about sex right now than it is to lie to assuage the ego of someone. There is no more malice than my talking about evolution to a creationist. It is sinister to bully others into saying things that aren't true.

The disability comparison is a good one. It doesn't really impact anyone if somebody 'identifies' as disabled in their own head. But it wouldn't be acceptable if their delusion meant that they used the wheelchair space in the bus despite being able bodied and therefore genuine wheelchair users couldn't get on.

You can no more change sex than you can change race or be an able bodied disabled person. The only reason that the idea of changing sex is indulged when the others aren't is because it is a mainly male driven activism and the negative impact of it falls disproportionately on women.

100% stitch! This has gotten so far because it’s women that are being shoved aside for the benefit of men. Feminism makes some men very angry. This is their current way of trying to crush it. It has happened before and it wil happen again under a new guise.

Clearly the issue for many is the self identification law...but if you are aware that transwomen are also being chucked under the bus then why are you no longer an ally, given that the transactivist/agp/sexual assaulters are the minority?

I don't think we'd be discussing trans issues at all if it wasn't for the transactivist/agp/sexual assaulters. They may be in the minority (although I'm not sure that's the case now the big inclusive trans umbrella has been spread so incredibly wide) but they are the ones getting the law changed and getting their 'guidance' accepted uncritically by almost all organisations and they are the ones trying extremely hard to make it impossible for women to talk about any of this.

It's been said many times - these are not 'trans threads' they are threads about women's rights, and sometimes also about children's rights and wellbeing.

Yes you see it in action on twitter. Lefty men happily telling women that transwomen ARE women so suck it up, because it has absolutely zero impact on them but gives them a chance to display their misogyny in a 'progressive' way. Until you suggest some way that it might impact on them too, such as considering transwomen as sexual partners if they are really woman. The backtracking can be amusing.

Yes like this guy stitched! Apparently trans women are 'not his type'.

Conspiracy

Don't let the few voices that you don't agree with sour you to the whole debate. Take what you agree with, challenge what you don't and form an independent opinion.

I think you have hit the nail on the head, it was a few voices, that just enjoyed jumping on the 'bullying' bandwagon, probably not even having strong opinions on trans issues - just a dislike of IW, which I share but I can accept it was her personality that was irritating rather than her penis/lack of penis.

Haha yes he was one of the men I was thinking of. Owen Jones is another, screams homophobia when the idea of him having relations with a transman is suggested, failing to see his hypocrisy.

So you write that in a post in which you declare that everyone you know is generally accepting of transpeople and that you find the rudeness about transpeople downright shocking?

Yes. Saying you have concerns about someone with a penis (which is not all transwomen) being able to use a women’s toilet is fine and it’s perfectly possible to voice these concerns without being transphobic. So I question whether these people actually have genuine concerns.

When I say everyone I know is accepting of transpeople I mean people with gender dysphoria who want to transition to a man/woman and live their life in peace. I had no idea these terrible transpeople existed until I joined MN. Just like every group of people there will always be arseholes, doesn’t make being offensive to an entire group of people ok.

The definition of trans has altered considerably. Gender dysphoria is no longer a requirement and the suggestion that trans folk are dysphoric is itself transphobic. And plenty of self identifying 'women' are very attached to their penises with no intention of physically transitioning. Sadly these individuals are also the ones now influencing policy.

I will mostly use female pronouns to or about a transwoman, out of respect.

Just like I will call a Catholic priest Father, out of respect for other people's beliefs , even though I do not share them.

But if that Catholic priest is a convicted paedophile, of course i won't use an honorary term of respect, to or about him

Just like I will never call a women-hating "die-in -a-fire" TRA "she", and I don't believe that is misgendering or literal violence