Deliberate misgendering - will MN do anything to discourage it?

[SuperDandy]

I've reported a lot of posts lately for deliberate misgendering of individuals, but MN seems not to do anything about it ever.

Pick any thread you like that's relates to transgender in any way, and up pop the deliberate and persistent misgendering posters. It's bullying, and it's transphobic.

I'd really like to know what mn's position is on this.

MN policy has not changed OP: They are very clear. Using he and saying (name of transwoman) is a Man - both will usually be removed as against guidelines. That's what the report button is for.
Repeating the name instead - eg Paris, or using they instead, gets round it and is not transphobic. In fairness, not all gender critical people on here want an echo chamber, Datun is very good at debating and listening. Buffy used to be the same.
if you see anything out of order, you report . Some would prefer a debate rather than Swiss cheese but posts do get taken down if, for example, they are libellous.

Noloudnoises what's so hard to understand that people feel threatened by being told they can "suck my cock" if they don't use the correct pronoun to address someone?

@TellsEveryoneRealFacts sure, pick the one really unusual example to represent all trans people, that makes sense No different to saying all Muslims are terrorists, you’re picking one extreme example to tarnish a whole group.

I think the transphobia here is disgusting.

I'll use neutral pronouns out of politeness, but if I respect other people's pronouns then they should also respect mine by not calling me 'cis'.

If someone has a penis, then they're a man.

Post op, I will refer to them as 'she' if that's what they prefer.

However, regardless of post/pre-op status, if an individual continually refers to me/other women as 'cis' (a pronoun I don't recognise & reject), then I will respond in kind.

@BigEthel I’m a woman with all the parts expected there at birth - I’ve said ‘suck my cock’. It’s a turn of phrase. Women tell women to ‘get some balls’ as well, does this offend you?

It’s more provocative if you actually have one!

Hi SuperDandy,

We very recently clarified our position on misgendering here. Please do head over and have a good read of the thread.

To break it down, we think that repeatedly referring to someone by a pronoun they've rejected is both goady and inflammatory and therefore against our talk guidelines - we will remove these posts when reported to us.

We do appreciate that there are discussions to be had about biology and the nature of what it is to be a woman, and to that end we allow posts which align with scientific orthodoxy and which are in the spirit of genuine, civil debate.

If you see any posts that don't fit into the above, just hit the report button and we'll take a look.

If I’m speaking to someone then I will use whatever name they wish to use. So I will call Dave Danielle, but I will never say that he is a woman while he still has his penis. Because he is still a man. It’s really that simple, and no amount of shouting at me will change the facts.

I’m a woman with all the parts expected there at birth - I’ve said ‘suck my cock’. It’s a turn of phrase

But, not having one, it's an empty threat, and we all know that. If someone clearly has one, then it's rather more aggressive.

SuperDandy - SO glad to see your post.

As a new MNer I've been shocked at the repeated trans-based digs that come up around this topic. It seems incongruous that these are left up when so much other stuff that's offensive and prejudiced is removed. I'd really like to hear what MN's position is on this.

pbs.twimg.com/media/DWS4t5-XUAEpYwH.jpg

You are being unfair to use old photos of D. Muscato.
In the most recent image above, you can clearly see she is making an effort.

We do appreciate that there are discussions to be had about biology and the nature of what it is to be a woman, and to that end we allow posts which align with scientific orthodoxy and which are in the spirit of genuine, civil debate.

You have my respect for this @MNHQ

I'd love to know what the issue is with 'cis'. It's just a word to stop some people being referred to as 'normal', thus making others feel abnormal. Shame that the mindset is so backwards on here.

@PaperdollCartoon It does, yes, because it pigeonholes women into the "soft and sweet" stereotypes that I've been fighting against all my life. A vag is far tougher than a pair of balls but you'll never call someone a pussy to tell them to act tough will you?

This is a long-standing discussion. See here and here.

I'll use a person's preferred pronouns most of the time, as a courtesy. I'll do my best to avoid pronouns altogether where someone is clearly intent on eroding women's rights or where the cognitive dissonance is just too strong. Sometimes I'll slip up and use a correct sex pronoun. I'm aware I risk deletion when this happens.

Politeness sometimes comes at a cost. Endless exhortations to 'be kind', together with women's socialised response to comply with such demands, are in large part what's got us into this mess.

Massive thanks as always to MNHQ for allowing MN to be one of the very few places we can have this discussion

For the multiple thread hiders: if you want to know what all the fuss is about please read this factsheet.

I find this difficult because in the vast majority of cases it is not the trans person that I take umbrage with, but the society that caused an individual to feel that their biology did not align with expectations.

So while it’s factually incorrect to use their preferred gender, it’s also quite rude. Or maybe even threatening?

I don’t want to make an individual human being feel like that. But I do feel that the trans movement is a dangerous and subversive one and a lot of treatment offered, especially to younger people, will be viewed as the great medical blunder of our time.

I'd love to know what the issue is with 'cis'. It's just a word to stop some people being referred to as 'normal', thus making others feel abnormal.

No, it's a word which is used to stop some people (women) being referred to as 'women', thus making me/others feel abnormal.

I'm a woman, I always have been - why create a new label for me?

All these new MN users who are so shocked! I find it shocking that people would be so shocked to find that not everyone agrees with them. You'd think they'd have seen far worse before on twitter and reddit, but I guess maybe they send the ones with a more delicate disposition over to MN to help whip up the transphobia frenzy (anyone looked up what a phobia actually is? Its not disagreeing with someones position)

Who knew Lily M would be useful for something? Here's an example from the horses mouth of how a fervent trans activist is using Cis to imply women are the 'other' rather than transwomen @cxzcxz

Flavia- was just about to post that!

cxzcxz - I'd love to know what the issue is with 'cis'.

We are told that cis means having a gender identity that matches your sex.

1. To adopt the word 'cis' involves a tacit acceptance of the concept of 'gender identity' in the first place. This is the idea that it is possible to 'feel like' a man, woman, something inbetween or something else entirely, without any reference to one's physical sex or to sex roles or stereotypes. Gender identity is supposed to be an immutable internal essence that we are all born with. It's a faith based assertion for which there is no evidence - like souls.

2. The feminist understanding of gender is all the sex roles and stereotypes that are imposed on people because of their sex. It's a hierarchy with women and girls at the bottom. To say we are cis is to say we are comfortable with our own oppression.

3. To adopt the word 'cis' is to tacitly accept that there are two sorts of women - trans and cis, i.e. that transwomen are a subset of women as opposed to a subset of men. So we get 'transwomen are women' and all the problems that result from that.

I'd love to know what the issue is with 'cis'. It's just a word to stop some people being referred to as 'normal', thus making others feel abnormal.

The definition is someone who's gender aligns with their sex - but that means a) that you believe gender is an innate feeling b) that you accept the shit piled on you (aka gender) because of your sex is fine.

I am not 'cis' because I reject the concept of gender entirely. I am a woman, who has had some gender stuff forced on me, but I will not 'identify' with that therefore I am just a woman, and using 'cis' for me is misgendering and offensive.

I offer an alternative - if cis and trans are just words, and fine, why not 'real' and 'faux' instead? If it seems rude to call a transwoman a fauxwoman, perhaps you now see why I find 'cis' rude.

@whifflesqueak and @PencilsInSpace This a million times. Thank you for putting it so clearly.

See, that's not helpful - many on here do not have a more delicate disposition, that's bollocks. They just don't like all adult male transwomen being automatically accused of being autogynephiles and gender dysphoria being minimised - as in the comment above about society being at fault for the disconnect as opposed to the condition.