New sub-section please?

[RatRolyPoly]

Hello MNHQ, may I gently put forward the idea of a new Libfem sub-section please? I don't know if the idea has been floated before so I'm not sure what appetite there would be for it, if any at all, but in the interests of feminism being accessible to all women and for the benefit of all women I'd like to raise my hand in favour.

By "all women" I primarily mean women such as myself, who would appreciate a section on Mumsnet to discuss feminist and women's issues without what is serving to all intents and purposes as "entry criteria" on the existing board; that being the obligation to deny the legally recognised genders of a group of individuals - contrary to the Gender Recognition Act 2004.

This situation, I believe, has become the case due to prevalence of a certain brand of feminism having become overrepresented on this board, but serves the purpose of excluding and silencing the valid views of many women and feminists.

I'm not attempting in any way to discredit or silence the position of this current majority, merely to suggest that a specific board is needed to enable the voices of liberal feminists to be heard; not least by each other, in order to discuss the ongoing struggles faced by women in today's society.

Cheers.

I really don't recognise the characterisation of FWR provided here. Yes we give some posters short shrift. Those who won't express an opinion but tell us we are doing it wrong (usually spouting guff about how we call everyone cool wives or handmaidens). Those who disagree through the medium of long and tortured metaphors that don't actually illustrate their point of view.
It's really frustrating.

rat

I understand

Thank you for your explanation

So the argument against is mostly "you don't need a liberal feminist echo chamber because there's already a radical feminist echo chamber you can use.

I think its mostly

There is not a rad fem board so whats the point in a lib fem one

Quentin, if someone gives an opinion on gendered insults, they are still giving an opinion. Unfortunately it is an unwelcome one on FWR as it currently stands, so instead of respectful discussion or even debate, they are subjected to insults and ad hominem attacks.

Goldenburg, we certainly don't need another echo chamber.

Just because there is no rad fem board doesn't mean that we can't have a lib fem one.

Just because there is no rad fem board doesn't mean that we can't have a lib fem one

Well obviously

I just dont see the point in a different board for all the different types of feminism

You obviously do see the point

I don’t see any reason why there shouldn’t be a liberal feminist board. But I also can’t see how it would work and what good it would do.

And, again stating the obvious, if there is a lib fem board then there is probably a need for a rad fem one

And a marxist one

And an eco one

I mean again i dont see the point...but obviously other people do

Obviously

I'm going to fuck off now...not ignoring anyone or anyones points

Have a good night everyone

Rad fems, Marxist fems and Economic fems can start a Site Stuff thread and make their case, just as I am making my case for a lib fems thread here. I get that not everyone will think it is necessary, but I think it's a good idea and hopefully women will not need to be feeling brave to go there and discuss feminism.

As in the Great FWR Wars, ignore who you think are derailers (as was suggested by many on the multiple threads) and post more (my eternal suggestion to those who don't think there's enough of what they want to see)

It's more people who don't feel they have anywhere to centre rather than those who aren't seeing what they want to see. As for the methodology, you paint it like a negative; I'm keen to hear the alternative.

That's where a lot of the "how can you be a feminist if you don't centre women?" questions come from, at least from my part

I actively don't want to refute Maryz's list of what she believes is in my head - honestly I didn't really read the points - but the reason I cracked a smile is because this is an anonymous forum; I am known to nobody; nobody knows what I do, what I've done in my actual life to bring actual women and girls one step closer to equality and empowerment; and yet it's no secret to Maryz or anyone else that I'm a fairly competent sportswoman. It's hardly a stretch to imagine why I might be so confident in my feminism based on my actual actions rather than the contents of my mind!

And hey, look, I have no issue with a feminism that prioritises a feminist outlook over feminist action - no problem at all - I'm just really surprised that on Mumsnet at present it seems to be the only kind of feminism available. Doesn't that seem strange?

KriticalSoul Thanks for this re:expansion of the Feminism board. A couple of other posters mentioned it too and a pp suggested "colonising" one of the existing ghost-town boards. Between you you got me perusing the "Feminist Theory" board; it's interesting.

Except it isn't, because no-one really posts on there.

Clearly it was once the place for the more robust debate, as posters note a historic sense of trepidation before approaching! It seems to support the notion that Feminist Chat was actually meant for those more liberal and women just dipping their toes into feminism. But the old guard have abandoned it, and all discussion of feminist theory now squarely takes place on the chat board.

So rather than trying to shoo away any talk of the theoretical to somewhere nobody wants to go, how about it gets a name change? Practical feminism, Grassroots feminism, god forbid feminism; but what is there to lose? Either it stays empty and what loss is that? Or it gets used by people who want to use it.

The reason there isn't a RadFem board is again, down to Dittany.

Originally FWR did have a RF board when making changes were mooted. But then Dittany spat her dummy out and went all 'how very DARE YOU' at MNHQ because it would apparently just make a target of the RadFem element by the MRA's, and Ghandi got called a cunt.

So MNHQ deleted that one and Feminst Chat was born to give the newbies and liberals a place.

I’ve not reached the end of the first page yet but I’m hoping when I do get to the end that OP has explained what she means by entry criteria without referring to vegans, farmers or the Tories?!

What about a section for people that want to discuss trans issues? Would that help?
I am interested in feminism but most of the threads that come up in active seem to be related to trans issues which I'm not interested in as don't see any of these things they talk about happening - like mixed gender changing rooms etc. ( not based in UK though)

I’m going to hold my hand up & say I don’t know much about feminism of any ilk.
Something I have noticed is how the wants & demands of a few people born as men have set a whole lot of women against each other.
I’m pretty sure those born men wouldn’t be fighting that hard for rights for us & I wonder why we are fighting between ourselves on their behalf.

Nancy 75, I'm just going to find a hat to put on in order to tip it in your direction.
Excellent post.

“And hey, look, I have no issue with a feminism that prioritises a feminist outlook over feminist action - no problem at all - I'm just really surprised that on Mumsnet at present it seems to be the only kind of feminism available. Doesn't that seem strange?”

What does this mean?

bert I read it as she does stuff in the real world while the FWR posters are keyboard warriors.
I'm out now, this whole thread is a masterstudy in subtle trolling if you ask me. Divide and conquer feminists 101.

Yes, me too, Quentin. A pat on the head for all those quaint old radical feminists. Meanwhile, in the real world.....

I'm glad you invited me to requalify that Bertrand because it does rather imply I think some feminists talk and some feminists do, rather with the implication that I think I do more than most - which is NOT what I mean.

What I mean is that is would seem for some people it doesn't matter how much you do if they don't think you think the right things.

This is exactly the kind of de facto gatekeeping I'm talking about being a problem on the main board.

Because for as long as somebody thinks it's okay to write a full post character assassination based on what they think another woman thinks in order to exclude her as a feminist; well that's when you know you've got a problem isn't it.

There is not MN space available at present for those who consider themselves feminists who have no interest in either setting or passing any sort of test on feminist ideology.

I’ve not reached the end of the first page yet but I’m hoping when I do get to the end that OP has explained what she means by entry criteria without referring to vegans, farmers or the Tories?!

I'll save you some time; I don't. THERE ARE NO ENTRY CRITERIA.

YY Nancy

This is exactly the kind of de facto gatekeeping I'm talking about being a problem on the main board.

So

1. write a post saying you are a better feminist because you do stuff and others talk
2. wait for feminists to be offended
3. tell them they are attacking you and gatekeeping.

Masterclass.
Hiding now.

Spectacularly missing the point Quentin.

Hi all

Thanks for raising this - it's an interesting question and an interesting debate.

As a few have noted, one problem is that in truth there's no real need for a liberal feminist topic. Most, if not all of the topics of interest to liberal feminists - general equality, abortion rights, intersectionality, equal pay - are of interest to feminists of all stripes, and could feasibly be discussed on the existing FWR boards.

So it does seem as though the motivation for the board would be to have a place where debates over trans issues were discouraged - and honestly, we understand why that might seem attractive to those who are frustrated with the extent to which they currently dominate the FWR boards

There's a bit of a bind: on the one hand, it would be problematic if issues of general feminist interest were hived off onto a libfem topic. On the other, we can see that some feel that it's already impossible to discuss these general topics on the general FWR boards without them being toppled by the trans debate.

The problem is that, while we do have topics for particular activities or niche interests within a broader topic, we've thus far avoided having subtopics for people who hold a specific set of views or beliefs - I think that is really what it would come down to, wouldn't it? By extension, that would tend to mean that people who don't hold those views would be excluded from that topic: that does, in truth, feel like a slippery slope which would ultimately undermine Mumsnet as a place where anything can be discussed by anyone, within our Talk Guidelines.

So we don't think this is the solution for now, sorry OP- but we are interested to hear all your suggestions and lines of thought. Maybe there is a way to presage generalist questions with a qualifying "[trans issues being hypothetically resolved]" to enable these broader issues to be discussed...?

As I said, this has been a really interesting discussion.