New sub-section please?

[RatRolyPoly]

Hello MNHQ, may I gently put forward the idea of a new Libfem sub-section please? I don't know if the idea has been floated before so I'm not sure what appetite there would be for it, if any at all, but in the interests of feminism being accessible to all women and for the benefit of all women I'd like to raise my hand in favour.

By "all women" I primarily mean women such as myself, who would appreciate a section on Mumsnet to discuss feminist and women's issues without what is serving to all intents and purposes as "entry criteria" on the existing board; that being the obligation to deny the legally recognised genders of a group of individuals - contrary to the Gender Recognition Act 2004.

This situation, I believe, has become the case due to prevalence of a certain brand of feminism having become overrepresented on this board, but serves the purpose of excluding and silencing the valid views of many women and feminists.

I'm not attempting in any way to discredit or silence the position of this current majority, merely to suggest that a specific board is needed to enable the voices of liberal feminists to be heard; not least by each other, in order to discuss the ongoing struggles faced by women in today's society.

Cheers.

In that case, for everyone else on the thread, the op believes:

It's ok for men to win women's sporting events (and from the sport thread, it's ok for any man, on his own say-so, to compete as a woman).

The rights of a man to a job he wants trumps the rights of vulnerable women and girls to a male free space.

It's ok to tell an abused woman that "this male-bodied (with or without a penis) person feels like a woman so you have to swallow down your fear and allow them to do an intimate exam on you/counsel you on your rape/stay in a hospital bed beside them/share changing spaces with them/leave your daughter alone with them and it's also ok to then call the abused woman transphobic for objecting to any of the above.

The op also believes in allowing the erosion of rights of 50+% of the population (who are female) in order to push forward the rights of 1% (who are men)

This entire thread is is an effort to get an Anti-TERF subsection in MN feminism. Nothing to do with liberal feminism at all

I also kill kittens.

Thank you Maryz your post says everything I wanted to say, only better.

We have a feminism section.
There is no need to subdivide it into different types of feminism, everybody is free to start a thread about any issue they want to.

It just so happens that trans issues are on a lot of women's minds at the moment.
If you want to talk about something else, start a separate thread. You don't get to ban anyone for posting views you don't like by calling them the "wrong sort of feminist".

C8H10N4O2, who will be no-platformed because a new sub-section in feminism exists?

I don't know, I'm not clear on who the new board is for, I've asked for something clearer than vague analogies which don't answer the question. Why not use some concrete examples?

The main thrust so far seems to be to discuss without contribution from a different point of view - that is an echo chamber.

What will it add to the current situation vs the fragmentation and diminishing of content (which it will IME). Nor do I see the existing boards as intimidating unless you want agreement rather than actual discussion - and I'm hardly a regular there.

So to pick up two recurring themes just from this thread - what would the board position be on self identification and porn/sex work? Or on intersectionality? Or right/left politics?
LibFems do not all agree on these any more than RadFems so what will be the board stance/defining criteria?

You don't get to ban anyone for posting views you don't like by calling them the "wrong sort of feminist".
The OP will not have the power to ban anyone. Lib fems are seen as "the wrong sort of feminist" on the FWR boards, so why shouldn't we have a sub-section.

I still want to know what this sub forum will be about. Not sure if I am being dim for not understanding.....,,

Hang on...

Surely if you want to talk about x from a specifically libfem stance (or anyone else, about any x from other kind of feminism) that is precisely the kind of thing that should be going in the existing area of "feminist theory"?

Why don't you try that and see how it goes before asking for mn to set up another area? Generally they want some sort of proof (frequently a long standing thread on the subject) before they create new boards anyway.

Ooh I would say if this happens any name except for everyday feminism. Everyday feminism is a misogynistic phallocentric organization that spews out utter rot for 'articles', almost always about how you must please men in your feminism and appear to have Riley J Dennis on the payroll and basically running the show. Riley is most famous for his berating of lesbians for being, well, lesbians. So rather homophobic. Everyday feminism has such bad associations for many feminists.

This is Riley, by the way

Charming person. Rapey too.

I think the op is looking for an "Everyday Feminism" topic. Riley doesn't like women much, does he?

Look you've been whanging on about this since lunchtime Saturday. Post a thread in Feminism. See what happens.

I was thinking of alternative names such as "Everyday feminism" whilst driving; is it the word "liberal" which causes concern?

As in the Great FWR Wars, ignore who you think are derailers (as was suggested by many on the multiple threads) and post more (my eternal suggestion to those who don't think there's enough of what they want to see).

The feminism boards are not a magazine, they are what posters make them. If there is a latent requirement for the type of discussion you wish to see, then posting more will encourage like - minded folk to also post, I would imagine. Why the need for a sub forum?

And as Mr Covey says, Seek First To Understand. There must be points of commonality if everyone's a feminist. That's where a lot of the "how can you be a feminist if you don't centre women?" questions come from, at least from my part (although I've largely given up, tbh) . I want to understand. I want a strong feminist movement. I hate the divide that means that our strength is dissipated.

Everyday feminism

You've tipped your hand there, OP

I don't know where you get this idea that there are no lib fems on the feminist board. I'm a libefem for much of my activism, in the old, classical defition - that swathes of what I do for my feminism do nothing to challenge the structures and mechanisms of power and governance. I'm mainly trying to put more women in them. That's what it means to be a liberal feminist - you do your feminism within the current social system that we operate in. So I work on diversity initiatives within my company - I don't suggest the company becomes an anarcho-communist collective (I work in finance - that would just be weird ).

If I were a radical feminist, I'd be more likely to be dreaming up ways to free women that didn't spend chunks of time working on making it easier for women like me to access high paying jobs in the same way that my male peers do. The radical of radical feminism means examing the root of the causes of women's oppression, and working towards a society that functions in a completely different way to the one we have now. And I see a lot of value in that - and I think they're likely on to something. But for me, my feminist basics are arguably accommodated within a liberal feminist ideology more easily than a rad one - there's no reason at all why a liberal feminist wouldn't believe in the Nordic model and be extremely critical of the porn industry. The choice-uber-alles model that styles itself liberal feminism isn't liberal feminism - it's individualism, or post modern feminism, but there's no class analysis, so there's no feminism. Or am I way off?

I am, however, as gender critical as the day is long. Are you sure that's not what really bothers you about the board? Start a thread, go wild, pick a topic that matters to whoever you think lib fems are (wish you could give an example of what you'd want to talk about that isn't actually veganism) and see what happens?

argh! *post-modernism, not post modern feminism. I said there was no feminism in it, then put it in

I don't know if anyone else has pointed this out, because i'm not trawling 300 messages full of bickering.

But. FTR, when the Feminism board was expanded several years ago and the new subsections added (yes, the whole hoo-ha in which Dittany left because she was told actually the FWR board wasn't 'her' board)

Feminist Chat was actually meant for those more liberal and women just dipping their toes into feminism.

Over time its become what it is now, so adding further subsections will make fuck all difference because the TERF's on here will piss all over that one as well!

"Liberal" means different things to different people.

One kind of liberalism (social liberalism) laid the groundwork for the NHS and introduced the concept of social welfare. It was the social liberals who designed the framework for the welfare state that was later fully developed by Labour. And Keynes was a social liberal, not a socialist.

Now a different type of liberalism (neoliberalism) is dismantling the NHS and undermining the concept of social welfare, reasserting the laissez faire economics that held sway in Victorian Britain up until the social liberals came along. The right-wing arm of liberalism preaches freedom at the expense of all other concerns, and asserts that every person has a right to be who they want to be, no matter what the cost to other people and to society.

I think we are currently seeing the development of a new kind of liberalism. One that says we should be social liberals at the governance level but neoliberals at the personal level. This is breeding a sense of entitlement all over the place, as the new type of liberal expects society as a whole to be engineered around feeding their personal neoliberal wishes. Thus, the "special snowflake" was born.

So, when OP calls for a "liberal" feminist corner of MN, I wonder what sort of liberalism it is that they want? The one that talks about social responsibility and freedom in equal quantities, the one that tells us life should be a free-for-all, or the one that encourages us to think that everyone has a right to do, think and say what they want - as long as those actions, thoughts and words don't contradict their own?

Over time its become what it is now, so adding further subsections will make fuck all difference because the TERF's on here will piss all over that one as well!

Yes that's extremely welcome to women "dipping their toes into feminism" isn't it? Perhaps some of them might be slightly gender critical?

C8H10N4O2, as I said before, the OP of this thread will not have any power to ban anyone from discussing anything. FWR is a cold house for lib fems where the term is used as an insult. Hopefully different POVs will be discussed. Liberal Feminism is a very broad church which includes different views on intersectionality, Trans, politics, sex work, infant feeding, abuse, pubic hair grooming, legislation, abortion and all and any feminism.

I hope that it doesn't turn into a lib fem version of what we have at the minute on FWR.

Which is an echo chamber.

When "TERF"s are pissing over things, do they do it standing up or sitting down?

Which is an echo chamber

There are a number of active trans and male posters that I think would take issue with that characterisation. The board is also a hive of activity right now. I've never seen it busier (in my three or so years there) and there are loads of new posters. There is absolutely a diverse range of opinions there, and over the last month there has been a constant stream of posters arriving saying "I've only lurked before, but I'm posting now". It's great. But yes, a lot of it is focused on trans issues - because they are cropping up in just about every single topic that we generally talk about. And it's not feminists that are putting trans people at the heart of every women's issue - it's transactivists. Women are reacting.

Sophocles

If i stood up the things i would be pissing over would be my legs

C8H10N4O2, as I said before, the OP of this thread will not have any power to ban anyone from discussing anything.

Yes I know you already said that. Its very interesting but does not address my question.

Hopefully different POVs will be discussed

Which already happens on the existing board. I still don't see what is going to be different beyond subdividing what is already there.

So the argument against is mostly "you don't need a liberal feminist echo chamber because there's already a radical feminist echo chamber you can use."

Echo chambers must also be made of glass because those in them never realise they're in one.