New sub-section please?

[RatRolyPoly]

Hello MNHQ, may I gently put forward the idea of a new Libfem sub-section please? I don't know if the idea has been floated before so I'm not sure what appetite there would be for it, if any at all, but in the interests of feminism being accessible to all women and for the benefit of all women I'd like to raise my hand in favour.

By "all women" I primarily mean women such as myself, who would appreciate a section on Mumsnet to discuss feminist and women's issues without what is serving to all intents and purposes as "entry criteria" on the existing board; that being the obligation to deny the legally recognised genders of a group of individuals - contrary to the Gender Recognition Act 2004.

This situation, I believe, has become the case due to prevalence of a certain brand of feminism having become overrepresented on this board, but serves the purpose of excluding and silencing the valid views of many women and feminists.

I'm not attempting in any way to discredit or silence the position of this current majority, merely to suggest that a specific board is needed to enable the voices of liberal feminists to be heard; not least by each other, in order to discuss the ongoing struggles faced by women in today's society.

Cheers.

Hi Bertrand, I answered that above in response to Aftershock.

Hi itsallgoingtobefine and struggling, thanks so much for your feedback. I'll be back shortly to read fully and perhaps respond if appropriate. Cheers again.

It’s interesting. I actually perceive liberal feminists - or liberal feminist views, even if the person expressing them does not think of themselves that way - to be in the majority on Mumsnet. The prevailing mood seems to me to be very pro porn, pro prostitution, pro choice. What used to be called sex positive feminism.The threads on trans issues look different, I agree, but I suspect that is because of a few very articulate, very prolific posters. If anyone needs the equivalent of a big game park, it’s us radical dinosaurs!

“Hi Bertrand, I answered that above in response to Aftershock.””

You mean the farming analogy? I don’t really get it i’m afraid. Do you mean that you want an area where, for example, everyone agrees that prostitution is just as valid and free a job choice for women as any other, and anyone who thinks differently is not welcome?

I expect such a board would get trolled to fuck by derailers, lefty boy fems and patronising mansplainers.

OP, I believe the correct term for what you are asking for is an "echo chamber". Which is easier to understand than your describing a board where the "entry requirements" are set by you, rather than ones you don't agree with.

Actually, speaking as a full-on Spartacus, I don’t see the problem with your proposal at all Rat. You are not asking for the more radical discussion to be hidden away, which is the issue I see when someone asks for a trans section. Rather a quiet space to discuss with like minded individuals. If that isn’t the same argument as why I want to preserve women only spaces, then I don’t know what is!

So I fully support you.

And obviously the "entry requirements" which you describe are not real, that's your own projections. Please do come over to the feminist boards, lots of Trans people, sex positive folk are regular welcome posters. The only group who don't stick around seem to be the flouncers, those who post a nippy "I don't agree, you are all mean for disagreeing with meeeee" and then run away!

Why don’t you just start a thread in the feminism section?

I don't identify as a radical feminist. I don't think there is anything radical in my position, that of being critical and cautious about the problems with the GRA. I think the people who think it's in anyway acceptable, let alone the preferred option to sterilize children to match their perceived belief in gender stereotypes, it completely off the charts "radical".

I'm a let's be nice to all the nice people, and call out the behaviour of all the shit people kind of feminist.

I don’t think you did answer my question. I asked what you felt the entry criteria are to the current feminism board and you gave a farming analogy.

Like struggling the precise definition between rad and lib feminism isn’t clear to me and I suspect that for many people this is the case. I suspect that if you tried to categorise me by my views on single topics you would see that I don’t fall firmly into either camp. I don’t want to be pigeonholed and neither do I think you can get a decent debate within an echo chamber.

It does seem to me that you want to exclude certain opinions - at least be confident enough in them to state clearly what you want.

The gender critical view was the minority view a few years ago. The reason it seems like the majority view now is that women changed their minds after considering both sides, not because there was an influx of radfems or even a mass conversion to radical feminism. The reason there are lots of threads on the trans subject is because women care about women’s rights and are concerned about the upcoming change in law. I agree generally with likeminded people having a space to chat (although in the case of liberal feminism that space seems to be the whole of the “progressive” internet bar mumsnet) but I can imagine a lot of threads in a libfem section would devolve into arguments about whether a particular viewpoint should be allowed to be expressed as a libfem position. Lots of libfems are gender critical.

I wouldn't describe myself as a radical feminist at all but I'm def the Spartacus variety. The whole Radfem label is utter nonsense as it's coined nowadays. I was watching a programme posted recently which is all about radical feminism - nothing like the prevailing view featured on the feminist boards. And I think that's the problem - labels thrown around that have lost meaning & a need to reframe the debate to underscore the schism that's occurring in feminist discourse.

I don't see the need personally to have a subsection of feminism to widen the chasm.

IMO what's needed is not a "liberal feminist" board but an "open-minded feminist" board, where the purpose is actually reasonable and polite consideration of different views, rather than: A) constantly misrepresenting what 'outsiders' say in order to denounce them for crimes against feminism; B) engaging in cliqueish playground behaviour of mutual self-congratulation and tribal reinforcement in order to make it clear to outsiders that they are outsiders; C) policing other women's feminism and calling them names if they don't fit certain narrowly defined criteria.

Perhaps a "liberal feminist" board might be more likely to achieve that, I don't know. If it did, I would be in favour of it.

Feminist chat used to be called feminism and Woman’s rights. If you started posting in say feminist support and it it started getting filled with liberal feminism then a name change would be good.

And for what it’s worth I use to think I was a liberal feminist but motherhood has shown me how little choice I really have in this world.

I've been posting on feminist chat since it opened in 2011. There's always been a mix of views. I think trans issues dominate at the moment, but I suspect that's because it all seems to impact on other aspects of women's organising.

'I actually perceive liberal feminists - or liberal feminist views, even if the person expressing them does not think of themselves that way - to be in the majority on Mumsnet'
Yes- maybe not uniformly pro-porn, but a lot of women, even those who oppose gender self-declaration, have mostly liberal feminist views.

I would understand liberal feminism to be a form of feminism focussed on legislative change, equality etc (access to abortion being a big focus) and radical feminism to be much more about theorising the root of women's oppression, organising women-only groups, the kinds of things Mary Daly or Sonia Jonsson would write about.

I think libfem is used as an insult where there's actually nothing wrong with being a liberal feminist. Andrea Dworkin has an essay about how we need all sorts of feminists organising in different ways.
(in an interview re-printed in Spare Rib, I think).

In terms of different sub-sections, I don't have an issue with it, but I remember before the section even existed that when I first read eg what Dittany had to say I was instinctively against an anti-porn analysis and didn't think I would ever agree with her, but the rest of her ideas made so much sense that the anti-porn arguments fell into place afterwards.
I'm glad I was in discussions she was on. It made a huge difference to my life.
I split up with my abusive husband, became a lesbian(not really- I was one already), got slightly into witchcraft (tarot) although haven't killed any children, and capitalism seems to still be going strong.
www.seattlepi.com/local/opinion/article/Pat-Robertson-has-odd-take-on-feminism-1158216.php

I agree with struggling

I dont really understand why another topic is needed, could an existing topic for example support or theory be made a GRC free zone?

Rather than a rad fem topic and a lib fem topic as i think that could be confusing

It is worth lurking. I used to think the feminists and political people at uni were a scary lot, and I was very live and let live.

I have learned a lot there.

Back in the day they tried to make a separate radfem section. That went well.

for MNHQ

What happened Pencils? I've been around since 2013 on and off.

But the entry criteria are very fair: be able to articulate an argument... and that's about it really.

Whilst debate amongst feminists it vital and healthy, for me participation in feminism is not solely about arguing the toss with other feminists. So even if that were the entry criteria in place, I would not think that a very good or inclusive thing for women.

As someone who considers themselves a feminist but doesn't really know the difference between rad and lib, I think this could end up being very confusing.

Hi there, thanks in particular for this comment, it got me thinking, as I don't want anyone to be confused! I've been looking at the Weight Loss section on here and to be honest I don't know much about it in Mumsnet terms.There are subsections for Low Carb, 5:2 diets, all sorts! What I'm hoping is that someone breaking into the subject will still have the main Feminism Chat to explore and interact, but if they later decide that a liberal approach is for them - or want to find out more about it - there is a subsection here where that discussion is centred. So if I start out wanting to lose some weight I might not know anything about fasting/5:2, but then I come across it, want to find out more or even decide it's the thing for me... there's somewhere there for that :)

You appear to be saying, although I may be wrong, it's too early for me, that if you were discussing a subject and I came on with an opinion that could be viewed as 'rad fem', you would tell me 'but this is the lib fem section, so...'

Gosh no, that's not what I mean! I'm not saying we should split into two factions, the main Feminism chat would remain, and I'm not advocating turning people away - at all - just enabling posters to raise discussion along specific lines rather than them always descending into them justifying their overall position. For example on the vegan board; "Hi, I'm posting to ask what leather-free footwear options everyone's found" and someone says "why wouldn't you wear leather shoes? That's stupid", the discussion is more likely to be recentred and be helpful to the OP in virtue of it being in the correct section.

Why would you wear leather shoes, not wouldn't!

There's a thread in support right now where a woman's in a refuge and worried about yesterday's Women's Aid news announcement re: trans so I don't think that would work.
It does impact on all areas.

I roll my eyes when I see yet another thread about it, but if it isn't discussed here, where can women discuss it?

I don’t know the difference between rad and lib.
I am not sure what you are asking for, - a group for woman who think that trans women are women, or a group that thinks that they are not??

Totally confused

Do you mean that you want an area where, for example, everyone agrees that prostitution is just as valid and free a job choice for women as any other, and anyone who thinks differently is not welcome?

No, not at all, just somewhere to ask questions in the context of liberal feminism. I'll use the vegan example again if I may; not all vegans think honey is "exploitative" and not all of them think wool is unacceptable, but they can still all benefit from a place to discuss things specific to their being vegan, or indeed to debate the above, just as non-vegans can; non-vegan input is certainly valuable in such debates, but you'd still put that in the vegan section, right?

OP, I believe the correct term for what you are asking for is an "echo chamber". But differing opinions would still be invited and welcome? It's a question of contextualising discussion, not segragating viewpoinst.

Thank you WorkingItOutAsIGo

Why don’t you just start a thread in the feminism section?

Because I thought the right place for it was Site Stuff?

I don't identify as a radical feminist.

I'm not trying to identify anyone else as anything; I'm not asking for the existing topic to be split in two: "Lib" and "Rad": I'm asking for the existing broad Feminism chat topic to remain, but for there to be an additional subsection.