MNHQ here: have you got strong feelings and personal experience about partners staying overnight on postnatal wards?

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

A broadsheet journalist is looking to write a piece exploring the pros and cons of partners staying overnight on postnatal wards, and we're trying to help her out with finding some case studies of women who have personal experiences and opinions one way or the other.

If this sounds like you, please email us on [email protected] to let us know:

a) what your opinion is about partners staying overnight on wards; and
b) what your personal experience is.

Ideally, anyone featured in the piece would be comfortable with divulging some identifying details, and possibly with being photographed.

It's for a good, reputable journalist working for a broadsheet newspaper - she's keen to explore all the angles.

(If you've already contacted us about this, thanks very much - we just need to find a few more candidates and then we'll let you know how the land lies!)

Thanks
MNHQ

A big thank you to this journalist for publicising this issue. I don't know what the answer is but you only need to look at some of the thread on here about postnatal care to see why it's so important that postnatal care gets the publicity and public discussion it deserves. Hopefully improvements will follow these debates

There is no way to reconcile the needs of vulnerable, exhausted women who need their partner's support with the needs of vulnerable, exhausted women who need a space without men they do not know unless there is a dramatic increase in the number of private rooms available.

I think it's important to note that both of these groups contain traumatised women. There's a tendency to portray those who want partners to stay as selfish and thoughtless. But birth is an experience that can be truly terrifying and traumatic even without mental health difficulties or triggering personal histories. For those with them, the presence of a partner can be absolutely essential.

Coming down on either side really does mean throwing someone under the bus.

Increased staffing would help but wouldn't truly address the issue. Many women don't want assistance from strangers and one could just as well argue that increased staffing or the addition of security staff could address the issues caused by the presence of partners on the ward.

Finally I agree with the point that the presumption that the parent who gives birth will be the primary carer during those first days is sexist. Perhaps it is simply because mother and baby are usually both patients but even if the intention is innocent it reinforces a very stereotypical structure. Particularly given a woman who is likely to be exhausted and physically injured is still expected to provide full time primary care.

When I gave birth last year, the hospital had recently changed the rules to allow husbands/partners to stay beyond visiting hours and I was SO glad that they had.

I had to stay on the postnatal ward for 3 days due to initial difficulties with breastfeeding; I was exhausted and incredibly emotional and my husband's support was invaluable.

Because the bays are so small, he left for 4/5 hours each night to get some sleep. I only wish there had been a reclining chair so that he could have stayed. My DS would categorically not sleep in his plastic crib which meant one of us needed to be awake to hold him.

I can't imagine what it must have been like before seeing your exhausted wife give birth, struggle with breastfeeding and then be told that you had to leave her and your tiny baby when visiting hours were over.

I was so relieved that my husband was able to stay with me on the ward during the first night following birth of my baby. I arrived on the ward at 9pm at night, following surgery to repair a severe tear, with a baby that screamed all night, having had no sleep for nearly 48 hours. Without the support of my husband that night I think I might literally have broken down and been unable to cope. There were 4 women on the ward, all of whom had their partners with them overnight, the curtains provided privacy and not one of the other men was intrusive or annoying in any way. I can completely understand why this is an issue that results in strong opinions either way, but my personal experience was sheer relief that my husband was able to come to the ward with me and is the main reason that I would choose to deliver at the same hospital if I ever have another.

Katy I have not given birth but have been on a shared gynae ward in a vulnerable state for a couple of nights, and have also been in overnight with DS as an infant/toddler on both a shared ward and a private room.
Obviously I wasn't in a physically bad state in the children's ward but emotionally when your baby is on oxygen you are very fragile. Staff were good about restricting overnight numbers, no child had two parents except for the emergency 3am admission.
The most annoying of the parents was the snoring dad. There's always a snoring dad I think.
So I would think they could manage to sort out partners on labour wards especially in private rooms.

Oh and given that parents (who have to be there) pay for their own food, and shower at home when swapping over with their partner/relative, partners on the postnatal ward can do the same.

SatelliteCity has nailed it well.

The whole premise of the debate is divide and conquer in many respects, when we should be working together to make sure that the resources and facilities are available for all - and as pointed out, sometimes HCP are not the appropriate people to provide this support which can only be provided by family.

The most annoying of the parents was the snoring dad

On children's ward with my son I never got a wink of sleep - too busy worrying about him. I'd have killed a snoring parent for having the audacity to be able to nod off!

Satellite makes some excellent points.

Having read everyone's comments and based on my own inhumane experience, I really don't see any acceptable solution in a civilised country other than providing private rooms for everyone. Presumably that's why almost all developed countries other than the UK, including many much poorer than ours, provide private rooms as standard; the alternatives are completely unacceptable and can't accommodate everyone's needs. So the solution seems obvious. Other countries would not all be spending tax payers' money on this just for fun, if it wasn't necessary, would they?

The question is whether Mumsnet's journalist friend is going to write that up as the conclusion?

One Dad stayed and he snored very loudly throughout the night... I was ready to wack him! So much for a rest after giving birth. I'm not even sure if he was told to leave!?!?

The problem with a policy of being able to stay until they misbehave or x number ofstrikes is Who is hen going to have the job of kicking a possibly aggressive man out? Midwives? Security guards? And it's likely to happen at at point of conflict and hence be more stressful for everyone on the ward. It's much see to have a blanket policy.

I agree with all of the privacy and DV reasons but also that partners should be allowed to stay if mothers have a private room. That way if a woman feels the support of her partner is very important she can book a private room or opt for home birth.

Also yes there needs to be more fündig for more staff. Healthcare assistants even if not midwives. Often women just need a pair of hands.

On reading this thread I've come to agree that the premise of the question is wrong. We shouldn't be asking whether or not partners should be allowed to stay on wards, as others have said whatever you choose will leave many women feeling more vulnerable, we should be asking why postnatal care is set up in the way it is. It seems as though other countries, some a lot poorer than ours, do a much better job of looking after post-natal women. When post-natal care is dreaded more than actual labour something has gone very wrong indeed. I hope that the author does raise these points as they are vitally important.

I wonder if the culture in this country, where people are used to getting healthcare 'free', makes people feel as though they should just accept what they are given, even when it is dangerously inadequate and causes more problems for mothers down the line. I also think there is definitely a fraction within the healthcare profession who don't class women who have just given birth as 'deserving' of proper care, and this idea also needs to change.

Huge, relatively new hospital in Glasgow. But guess which unit was still designed as a ward?

I'm very glad people think I expressed my points well. I recently experienced a fairly traumatic birth (three day induction followed by an emergency section, baby in the NICU for a few days and a week long stay in hospital) so this is an issue close to my heart currently. I was fortunately given a private room due to these complications so my husband was able to stay. Even if there had been a hundred available midwives I would have preferred help and support from him. For a while we thought there would be no room and he would have to leave. I am a fairly robust person, emotionally and physically, but after all that had happened, and all the drugs in my system, the thought of being left alone in a strange place with strange people, not even totally sure where in the building my baby was, left me almost hyperventillating and in floods of tears.

His physical assistance was also needed during DD's first night back with us. My blood pressure was so high I was on 2 hourly obs meaning I hadn't had longer than about 90 mins uninterrupted sleep in 5 days. I was so sleep deprived I temporarily lost the ability to string together coherent sentences. I was not safe to be looking after a newborn. A HCP could have assisted with this (I mean theoretically, if hospitals were better staffed) but I was very glad that DH was able to care for her during this time instead and his presence helped me feel like less of a parenting failure in my irrational, hormonal, sleep-deprived state.

My birth experience was pretty bad but infinitely more tolerable because I had access to a private room and familial support. I feel very guilty that not all women are able to access the same.

Final note: the ability to book home births or private rooms is another way to address portions of this issue but not available to all. In my area there is only one hospital with maternity facilities and rooms are provided according to need. Which isn't a bad decision under the circumstances but also doesn't allow forward planning for those whose mental health requires it. It's also generally more likely to let women with MH needs slip through the gap as such needs aren't always as obvious and can compound the issue if they make it harder for a woman to speak up and advocate for herself.

Which isn't a bad decision under the circumstances but also doesn't allow forward planning for those whose mental health requires it. It's also generally more likely to let women with MH needs slip through the gap as such needs aren't always as obvious and can compound the issue if they make it harder for a woman to speak up and advocate for herself.

The gaps in the system are compounded by a lack of proper understanding about mental health needs by women and HCP themselves.

I was aware of my issues before I was pregnant and was able with DH to discuss this enabling him to advocate for me and put a plan in place before I even conceived. My situation was unusual from this point of view but the reality is only that I was aware of my rights and problems in a way that other women aren't. I long since lost count of the threads on MN in the childbirth section, who have concerns and worries really not dissimilar to mine but are struggling to a) realise their concerns are a health issue as equal to any physical need and b) to get the support and help they require acknowledged as 'legitimate' health concerns that need support.

In my case the hospital were great. They recognised my NEEDS - not desire in terms of the difference between 'need' and 'want' - included having DH there to support and continue to advocate for me after the birth. This was in the best interests of me and DS and not some kind of demand.

It is not lost on me that my ability to get access to this was - at least in part - down to me being educated and undoubtedly being middle class enough to argue the case in the right way and demonstrate that not having that support was likely to be damaging. And be willing to travel to somewhere able to provide that.

If you only find yourself in a situation where you need this, after you've actually had a baby, and the facilities are not onsite then you are effectively left completely stuffed. A lot of women - even ones who regard themselves as robust - are totally caught by surprise by their emotional and mental health needs after having a baby. Its unlike other health issues precisely because of the nature of childbirth and the hormones it produces.

I don't feel guilty though. I feel angry about it. I think its important for this reason to fight for equal treatment and proper understanding of why it is important for partners to be able to stay where it is appropriate and if this is not possible due to the lack of appropriate space to start asking why the hell we don't have it.

You don't have the right to demand what care you get under the NHS but you do have the right to the most appropriate care for your health needs.

My point is, don't feel guilty about, getting the appropriate support and care for your needs - that is your right. The mere fact you feel guilty about this, highlights the entire problem and why it is just so shocking. Do what you are doing here and try and help others who are being failed to get the same basic needs properly supported.

I have to say, I have got to the point where I feel the whole 'Should partners be allowed to stay on wards?' as a question is down right offensive and belittling to women for this reason because it does women such a tremendous disservice.

Hello all

Thanks very much for all the responses and to those who we've heard from off-board.

We'll point the journalist towards your posts on this thread about the overall picture in maternity care too, and why some of you feel we're asking the wrong question.

We're hoping to have the Chief Exec of NHS England on for a webchat soon, and that will be a chance for you all to put questions about the bigger picture around NHS funding and systematic problems with maternity care.

Finally - we hope most of you are aware of our Better Postnatal Care campaign; if any of you would like to join our email list of users who are kept up to date with developments and calls to action, please email [email protected] with 'Postnatal Care Campaign email list' in the subject line and we'll add you.

(We'll keep all MNers up to date with the campaign in the usual ways - discussion threads and mentions in our regular mail shots to users - but we thought it would be nice to have a dedicated email list for people who are particularly interested.)

Thanks
MNHQ

I used to be a HCP and am still working with vulnerable families. I worked with a young woman whose partner raped her in the middle of the night on a postnatal ward. I was shocked when I heard this but speaking to friends who are midwives and HV's I now know it's more common than you might think. Same goes for men beating their DP's, emotionally abusing them and forcing them to sleep in a chair a couple of hours after giving birth so they can relax on the bed. So all those saying "but I needed my DH with me", I get it. I really do. But can you just imagine for a second being forced to have penetrative sex a few hours after a vaginal birth??!
I was in labour for over 48 hours with DD. I was exhausted, sick and emotional afterwards. Watching DH leave and having to manage alone on a hot, dirty and understaffed postnatal ward was horrible. But it's nothing compared to what that poor woman went through. Whilst I'm sure your DP's are all lovely, that's great for you, but there are others whose DP's are abusive, inconsiderate and represent a risk to their partners, other patients and HCP's. Yes, I'd have loved to have DH with me, but it wouldn't be right because it means abusive scumbags get to stay too.

All those saying everyone should have a private room or there should be two separate wards, one with partners allowed and one not, I don't think you realise the desperate state the NHS is in.

Yorksha, those examples show that the need for some women to have time away from their partners is greater than the need of other women to have their partners with them.

"All those saying everyone should have a private room or there should be two separate wards, one with partners allowed and one not, I don't think you realise the desperate state the NHS is in."

Yes, and I think that any money spent should be used improve the outcomes of mothers and babies not for the comfort and inclusion of partners.

Some women need one thing. Others need another. That's the point.

Instead we get:

Women who have mental health concerns which are recognised by health professionals should not get support because some women are abused by men. We can't afford to treat women like humans because there is 'no money' because there is no political will to provide money and I support this by trying to silence others using the emotional blackmail card, rather than seeking a more progressive approach and overhaul of maternity.

You make it sound like women with mental health concerns are selfish bitches who don't give a shit about women who are abused.

I'd like to thank you for your insensitivity and how it reinforces the taboo of mental health and the treatment of women as being somehow 'demanding' in their needs.

You've just illustrated the point about how women have to continually justify their mental health to even health care professionals and continue to dance to the tune of the political culture rather than challenging it as being unacceptable.

yorkshapudding My mum told me of a woman on her ward in the 50s who was readmitted because her husband had burst her stitches. She was screaming to sew her up totally to stop him (it was her 15th child).

Now it's happening on the wards? I know that most men would be appalled at both those examples and would never want to be intrusive.

I'd like to thank you for your insensitivity and how it reinforces the taboo of mental health and the treatment of women as being somehow 'demanding' in their needs

You're twisting my words.
I didn't say anything about mental health.
I did not say anyone was being demanding. I did not try to "silence" anyone. I simply offered another point of view. It's called a discussion. If I can't express a point of view that differs from some other people's point of view or be accused of "silencing them" then this is going to be a very one sided, closed discussion.

Not that I need to justify myself but I have suffered with significant mental health issues myself (including postnatal depression), am currently caring for a relative with Bipolar Disporder and am a former mental health nurse and counselor. So you don't need to tell me about the stigma of mental illness.

Women who suffer from mental illness and women who are abused are not mutually exclusive as you seem to suggest. Far from it. Also, it's not as though "women with mental health concerns" are one unanimous hivemind. I have worked with many, many women with mental health issues who would find sleeping on the same ward as a load of strange men highly distressing, for a number of reasons.

I agree with you 100% actually that the money to fully fund the NHS is there but the current government are not motivated to provide it. I agree that that's a disgrace. But it's the reality of the situation we're in right now- of course we should strive for change and of course individual rooms for everyone or a choice of wards would be a great long term goal to strive for but that's not an option right now. Right now the options are postnatal wards where partners can stay, or postnatal wards where they can't. That's what the OP is about and that's the choice I was commenting on.

I'm not twisting your words.

You wrote your comments without thinking.

As a HCP former or present I expect better because you should understand the implications of saying things like that when the flip of the coin is often OTHER vulnerable people.

Frankly I'm even more disgusted to find out your experience with mental health. It poor.

Did you even bother to read what others had put before? You posts in the context of where the debate was just look really bad.

I was in a shared ward for 6 days post emcs. I wear hearing aids, at least one of which I kept in to sleep so I could hear if my new baby cried.
The girl next to me at one point near the end had her partner stay. They talked so loud that I had to take both hearing aids out in order to get some sleep.
That meant that I didn't hear my baby cry during the night :'( When the midwife came to wake me (probably called by the same couple), I felt even worse!