MNHQ here: have you got strong feelings and personal experience about partners staying overnight on postnatal wards?

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

A broadsheet journalist is looking to write a piece exploring the pros and cons of partners staying overnight on postnatal wards, and we're trying to help her out with finding some case studies of women who have personal experiences and opinions one way or the other.

If this sounds like you, please email us on [email protected] to let us know:

a) what your opinion is about partners staying overnight on wards; and
b) what your personal experience is.

Ideally, anyone featured in the piece would be comfortable with divulging some identifying details, and possibly with being photographed.

It's for a good, reputable journalist working for a broadsheet newspaper - she's keen to explore all the angles.

(If you've already contacted us about this, thanks very much - we just need to find a few more candidates and then we'll let you know how the land lies!)

Thanks
MNHQ

I didn't want my husband after I'd given birth, I wanted my Mum. My husband was shellshocked, traumatised, exhausted and quite frankly, useless. I chose a MLU and planned to be in and out with no fuss After 30 hours of back to back labour and a very stuck baby, I had an EMCS.

I was still completely numb from the chest down, had been awake for 48 hours and had "lost more blood than we like you too". And then all my support was sent home. I didn't sleep a wink. I was so mentally and physically drained, frightened to death of doing something wrong and exhausted beyond words. I was in a ward with 3 other women, one who refused to feed her baby (not breastfeed, bottle feed, every time her baby cried, she called for a MW and ignored the baby until one came. She "was in hospital for a break, I have to do it all when I get home") Another who's mobile phone rang loudly, she got calls and texts all night.

The MW tried their best but it was busy, calls went unanswered for a long time. The baby had been put in the crib too far away for me to reach so I had to stand up to get him, I bled over the floor, I was mortified and tried to clean it up away ls best I could.

I asked for help with breastfeeding and the midwife told me to feed him lying down, but I couldn't lie down because my body wouldn't let me and I was in pain, plus I was utterly terrified of falling asleep and crushing him. We'd been warned not to cosleeping as "a baby fell out of bed last week in this room because Mum fell asleep with him!"

I couldn't keep getting in/out of bed to put him in the incubator (my catheter was too short and I was tethered to the bed one end by that and the other end with a cannula attached to a drip.) So I just sat up with him between my legs until 7am when I rang my Dad to tell him to send someone before I went slightly mad with lack of sleep. I've never been so exhausted in my life. I bled through my dressing and needed it to be changed as I was sitting in a puddle of blood, the HCP apologised and was lovely but it still took over 45 minutes from me ringing the buzzer.

Would it have been easier if I'd had someone there with me? Yes. Would it have been even more hellish if I'd had to deal with three other women's partners? Absolutely yes. It was hot, cramped, I was in no fit state and in an environment I'd never anticipated being in. I just got on with it at the time (because there was no alternative ) but looking back it really blows my mind to remember.

But allowing or not allowing partners isnt the answer. It's more midwives, more health care professionals, more funding for maternity care. I discharged myself after 24 hours because I needed sleep and help and there was no way on earth I was spending another night in hospital where I'd get very little of either.

On kids wards a parent is allowed to stay and I think that can be either gender

Its utterly depressing.

I twice signed a waiver/disclaimer or something to get me out of that shitty hell-hole quicker than advised. That's what they will see a lot more of. Maybe that's part of the plan?

I wish my DH could've stayed with me after DC4. She was 10 weeks early, had a c section under general anaesthetic and we both had to be resuscitated. DC was whipped straight off to NICU and I was plonked in the middle of the ward. Thankfully my DM came and kicked up a fuss so was moved to a side room. There was nobody to take me to se DC (I was too ill to walk) so I didn't see her for 16 hours after she was born. If DH would have been allowed to stay I would have been less worried about her as I could have sent him down or he could have wheeled me down.

I have ready weighed in strongly on the original post natal care campaign thread - with a resounding yes, partners should be allowed on wards.

There a lots of reasons I think this; I'll list the important ones here.

• First and foremost, the child I have just given birth to is equally my partners child, he deserves to share in this experience as much as I do.

• Women need the support of someone close to them after such an event. Childbirth is sometimes traumatic and always exhausting, physically and emotionally. I strongly believe in emotional support for mothers at all stages of pregnancy and childbirth, and the benefits should not be understated. A partner is the best person to offer this in a postnatal environment. Having a newborn is an overwhelmingly new experience for first time mums and having the other parent or someone experienced like their own mother is important for confidence and coping well. A stranger just cannot replace that bond or replicate that trust.

• Practicality. You need someone with you who can help you do the basics, even if better postnatal services are in place. Pouring water, finding food, finding out how the ward works, looking after the baby while you go to the toilet etc are really important and I wouldn't be happy leaving my newborn in the care of someone I didn't know.

• This point is secondary and is more my personal opinion, but I don't appreciate the encouragement of out dated and old fashioned gender roles. Not allowing males onto the maternity ward really feeds into the old fashioned idea of a wOman being left to care for the child while dad carries on with life as normal. It's not a good start.

I have also asked my partner and he also feels strongly he should be able to be their with his newborn. He was the first time and he damn sure will be there this time. He finds it infair that his gender should limit his rights in this way. There needs to be better services for women who are truly uncomfortable with men around, but this does not trump the needs of the many families who want to be together during such a special time

There are plenty of alternatives to banning partners that would solve the issue. . -

• Providing more private space or redesigning wards so more privacy is possible.

• Asking women their preference as part of their antenatal care to help arrangements be made in advance.

• Having those spaces available for women who do truly need that private space by increasing private rooms in hospitals. Perhaps in the long term even investing in hotel style post natal accommodation as seen in countries like Spain.

• discharging healthy women who have had uncomplicated births promptly so they can go home and be with their families - I was deemed fit to go home 5 hours after giving birth but was kept on the busy postnatal ward until 11pm that night - my bed could have been used for someone else.

• increasing the campaign and awareness to support home births for uncimplicated pregnancies - if the women and their partners aren't on a hospital ward, it's not a problem!

• limited visiting times would do not work.

babies are not born on hospital visiting hour schedules. If your baby is born and you are moved to the post natal ward 15 minutes before partners visiting time is over, then you're screwed. What is even the logic behind "normal" hours on a post natal ward? women give birth and are moved there at all times of day and leave at all times of day. It is pointless and will leave women in the lurch, especially if they have anticipated having their partner there with them.

• limit other visitors. I wonder if the general sense of the wards being crowded with people who aren't the new mothers is what contributes to negative feelings towards partners on the birth wards. There were far, far too many visitors on the ward and the lack of privacy was intense. I had to walk past about 12 people clustered round a bed, the woman's curtains open to accommodate the large amount of visitors, in my bloodstained nightie in order to attempt my first post epidural wee, on wobbly legs. It was not a comfortable experience.

Provide separate basic facilities like toilets and showers for patients and partners. If this is not feasible, then simply make facilities on the postnatal ward itself patient only. Able bodied partners are perfectly capable of using public hospital toilets instead of the ones located specifically on the ward.

That's my two cents. I do feel so strongly about this. There are so so many things possible to fix this other than banning partners for the ward.

Where's the money coming from?

Better ways to spend public money. It's the NHS FFS.

If midwives up and down the country regaled the positivities of having partners (if you have one) stay then I'd listen. But there's much more pressing needs to be addressed.

And for me the bonding thing is a none argument. Women give birth under all sorts of circumstances and babies are born in all sorts of conditions, whcih sometimes means mums cannot look after or hold their baby straight away.

We know that this doesn't mean mum and baby won't bond well, but it doesn't mean it's not less than ideal. Saying they will be fine doesn't make it less ideal for men either.

ohfox fair enough but the thread is specifically asking about views on feelings about partners staying on PN wards.

Counter to Cherries' point about support for feminism meaning partners should stay - no. I'm a feminist, and for me, feminism is not about rendering biology invisible. It remains the woman who has actually given birth, the woman whose body has gone through the physical effort and often trauma of childbirth, the woman's body which (if she chooses to) will sustain her child through breast-feeding which needs calm and support to establish.

By all means encourage men to take shared paternal leave, to do nursery and school runs, to be stay-at-home parents if they choose, to drop their hours at work to take an equal share in parenting if both parents choose to work. I will support those 100% as feminist initiatives. By child-bearing, by biological necessity, is a female activity. Women's needs on post-natal wards trump men's wants, every single time.

I think it's culturally insensitive to allow men almost unlimited access in a woman's place. Some partners will be a great help and some will show up sporadically and off their face not. Some women could use this time to talk to professionals if they're being abused and their partners are always by their side till now.

I feel very strongly that it shouldn't happen. I feel very strongly that it's diverting money away from other areas which need funding. I can't believe Midwives would go for it either. They are missing from this debate.

I don't think female partners, mothers or sisters should be there either. It's a hospital, not an "experience"

You want an "experience"? Until the NHS has private rooms as standard, you birth at home or in an MLU. If you need a hospital, it's for a reason.

M0stly

But what about the wishes of the mother?

I would be interested to know, statistically the proportion women in the UK who are happy to have partners on the ward vs those who don't, rather than just a MN thread.

There are circumstances on which women will find the presence of their partner on the ward with them essential, and some women will be in circumstances where a female only zone is imperative to their mental wellbeing.

I am actually disappointed with the wording of the OP by mumsnet. If you followed the postnatal care campaign thread, it was apparent that this is the most hotly debated issue surrounding it.

However rather than fuelling and either or debate I feel that women, and Mumsnet, should be inspiring discussion about how those of us with polarized opinions to come up with suggestions about how women and the NHS can collaboratively come up with realistic solutions which make both groups of women happy.

I get it, that people are of the opinion that it's easier to ban partners than to allow them, but it doesn't address the equally valid issues this causes to a new mother's emotional wellbeing when she relies on a birth partner being with her after the birth.

Beyond tell that to a woman who has had a c section and is expected from day 1 to walk out of bed and get food or water or use the toilet. But she can't leave her baby alone. You will find that this experience is common amongst women who have had their partners shipped out.

It's not just about having a nice fluffy experience for everyone from dad to the extended family. It's about supporting women through an exhausting and traumatic event.

And I do thing home births and MLU should be more encouraged - I think it's unnatural and detrimental to women's emotional wellbeing to not have ongoing emotional support from someone she has come to know and trust - be that a birth partner or doula.

But the fact is the very women who need their partners there the most are the ones who have had the most difficult births. It's not just a case being precious or something..

So all my rights as a woman to recover from giving birth with privacy and dignity - as they would be on any other ward- are suddenly worth nothing compared to a mans rights to 'share in the experience?'

And you say you worry about gender roles, really?

You are living in a dream world if you sincerely believe hospitals are going to 'get redesigned' with more private spaces/rooms.

Yes histiny thats exactly what I think. Strip women of all their rights and autonomy and let "the men" do what they will.

Let's completely ignore the fact that many women need that support and welcome it with open arms. And skirt over any women who share their traumatic experiences and state how it would have been so much more positive with someone looking after them.

Is it really that implausible to move ward setup around? My hospital have done this recently... And in any case lots of the things I suggested are affordable or cost nothing. And they're only suggestions anyway

I did have a CS - and with pretty much any major surgery, from CS to hip replacements, current practice is to get the patient back on their feet ASAP because it's in their best interests - it dramatically reduces the risk of post-operative blood clots.

We're back to the issue of decent funding for necessary medical care (not fripperies). I was fortunate enough to have exemplary care post CS - midwives and paediatric nurses on hand to help me lift my baby. I realise that's because I was lucky - I "won" the postcode lottery and was in a hospital which wasn't over-stretched. What I would like is for all women to win the postcode lottery because we start funding midwifery, obstetrics and gynaecology (and the rest of the health service) properly.

And sorry just another point I meant to add - people are deluded if they think that no men on the ward would equal peace calm and quiet!! Apart from "army of visitors woman" opposite me I didn't hear a peep from any men, just a lot of very loud inconsiderate women, talking on the phone loudly at 1am, arguing with midwives (lovely woman next to me ripped into a midwife who explained to her that of her twins hadn't eaten in 6 hours then she should have woken them up for a feed) , women having contractions as there was no room on the labour ward, playing TV through smartphones in the early hours of the morning, staff coming and going and women being moved in and out at all hours. Having a another person on the ward behind their curtains with them was truly not but a drop in the ocean of cacaphony that happens on a post natal ward. The idea that removing a few people from a ward for a few hour's would suddenly turn it into a calm and peaceful environment to establish breastfeeding is actually laughable, sorry

There is no money- and the people have voted for no more money.

I'm sorry I find your reason number one, your main reason, laughable. Really.

Yes but when I suggest practical things that would improve ward quality and make it more comfortable for everyone to have partners stay I'm delusional, yet everyone who says that we just need every hospital to not have overstretched underpaid staff and exemplary midwifery care it's perfectly reasonable and realistic.

it's not a dig at you honestly, it's just a bit sad because I feel like people are "in their camps" and just really don't want to acknowledge the other side of the story.

As I said upthread, DH is my carer for both psychological and physical reasons. Both with planned and emergency admission to a gynae ward, having DH stay as my carer couldn't be accommodated, regardless of how stressful the situation would be for me.

Not being argumentative (honestly!), I just want to figure out where you stand on this. Do you think all wards should have adequate provision for someone to stay? Private ensuite rooms everywhere? (Don't nurses prefer bays for care? Sure I remember reading that somewhere)

Incidentally, there's a great episode of Yes Minister where Sir Humphrey explains to Jim Hacker how to get the right answer to a questionnaire by phrasing the question right (e.g. National Service - do you want to stop thugs from roaming the street by instilling military discipline in kids/ do you want thuggish kids with military training roaming the streets?)

I suspect with this you'd get quite different answers from the majority of women depending on whether you phrased the question "do you want your husband there 24 hours a day?" and "Do you want everyone else's husband there 24 hours a day?"

The trick is, surely, to get women to consider both questions, then give the answer they feel is the overall best one, given the facilities available, not the one in an ideal world where they had a private room and only their own husband.

And yes, it really does come down to resources. We do not, and never will, live in an ideal world with infinite resources. What do we take money from in order to build loads of private rooms? Dialysis? Heart operations? Oncology? And if we don't have private rooms, which wins? Having your own partner there at the cost of having everyone else's partner there too, or having privacy at the cost of not having your partner there?

Answers on a post-card.

That's fine if you find it laughable histiny honestly. But how about having some compassion for women who have different views and experiences to you?

My birth was traumatic. The midwife dealing with my labour treated me with utter contempt, and almost let my baby die. I have strong feelings that I absolutely needt partner there, but I have never once said that it should be an either/or situation. I fully support the rights and needs of women who feel the opposite to me and have tried to suggest practical ways of going about this. I've found it a common theme on this subject that women who dont want partners around are absolutely blind to the real and perfectly valid needs other women have, simply because their viewpoints differ. If that's an attitude towards other women you are happy to have, then that's your perogative.

Beyond I'm surprised at your experience and this is why I lean towards the status quo at my hospital which is to allow partners to stay 24/7 as the lesser of 2 evils.

My hospital is one of the worst in the country for maternity services and genuinely I have no desire to ever encourage it to have a ban on partners staying with new mothers. And even if services improved, I still feel that fathers should be there too, regardless of how "laughable" that is to some people!

I said was responding specifically to your "first and foremost" post- your main reason being that 'men deserve to share the experience'.

That's clearly a very different reason from women needing someone there.

I think you've got some great workable ideas for improving birth experiences- But i think saying more private spaces which of course is ideal - is absolutely pie in the sky.