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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Please can we have a Trans topic?

257 replies

LooseSeal · 21/09/2016 09:51

The trans debate seems to be devouring the boards at the moment. It's spread across feminism, chat and AIBU and it's often not clear from a thread title that it's going to be another trans thread.

Considering that trans threads are accumulating in numbers and attract hundreds of posts and posters I think it's time trans was given its own topic.

OP posts:
GingerbreadCake · 23/09/2016 20:02

Just hide the threads you don't want to read. It gives the subject farrrr too much oxygen to have its own topic.

Lorelei76 · 23/09/2016 20:08

Summers "After reading a lot of the threads recently, It has made me more supportive of trans people."

I think it's really important to support trans people who are having or have had treatment.

I just explained the new definition to my mum - she's nearly 80. She's kind of flummoxed. I can tell she's wondering I've misunderstood something. She's also really happy to support trans people who have had or are having treatment, or indeed planning to.

Teamoaktree · 23/09/2016 21:05

Still Spartacus? It seems so.

schbittery · 24/09/2016 06:22

I would support anyone going through a complex medical procedure, or having identity issues or psychological problems, as long as they weren't hurting anyone else, of course. Im still against giving children going through a phase puberty blockers though and im still Spartacus.

glenthebattleostrich · 24/09/2016 08:28

I used to think live and let live then some threads by those mean bossy old feminists opened my eyes.

These threads are important but if you don't want to read them feel free to hide them.

And on the subject of harassment, what about the charming TAs who only yesterday told me me and my 6 year old daughter should be raped and die? Because I said that we need a trans prison, is that not violent harassment?

ErrolTheDragon · 24/09/2016 08:55

Of course people with sex dysphorias should be supported. Of course kids who are confused about their bodies and/or sexuality should be supported and helped appropriately. Of course people who do not conform to gender stereotypes should be protected from discrimination.

ageingrunner · 24/09/2016 08:58

glenthebattleostrich Shock where was that? I'm so sorry he said that. That's exactly the sort of stuff women are worried about.

merrymouse · 24/09/2016 09:55

It isn't transphobic to question whether people are given enough counselling before beginning surgery or hormone treatment.

It isn't transphobic to worry about the long term effects of medical treatments.

It therefore isn't transphobic to question whether medical treatment is always the best option - and then you return to the question of the gender of somebody who hasn't had treatment, what proof there is that gender exists and whether it is possible to change sex anyway.

There are very big ethical questions that must be discussed, yet debate is not happening because we must all be 'supportive'.

Bambambini · 24/09/2016 09:57

and its getting us a reputation for being Transphobic, which the majority of people are not!

I agree with some of what you say. Thing is people are throwing out the "transhophic" accusation to ANYONE who says ANYTHING they don't like on trans discussions. I used to smart at it, recoil as i hate bigotry and intolerance. Now i shrug it off, it has become meaningless to me. Some people know being called transhobic will hurt and shame people and they do it deliberately to shut you up, discredit you, marginalise you. I don't care if i get called transhopic - not any more.

BeyondASpecialSnowflake · 24/09/2016 10:18

Once you learn to ignore "terf, transphobic and bigot", and just look out for actual reasoned debate, it becomes much easier to talk about!

venusinscorpio · 24/09/2016 12:45

Yes, exactly. It is an entirely meaningless epithet now. Well done, transactivists!

Bambambini · 24/09/2016 13:43

Just saw that an article celebrating the director of BJ Baby on being the first woman to direct a trilogy - had to ammend the accolade and article after being lobbied by TA's. So now Sharon McGuire us the Second Woman to direct a trilogy. Ho hum!

WinchesterWoman · 24/09/2016 13:59

That's really bad. Why don't the journalists just say no. Remind me which publication to avoid there, Bambini?

nc16 · 24/09/2016 14:06

I agree with some of what you say. Thing is people are throwing out the "transhophic" accusation to ANYONE who says ANYTHING they don't like on trans discussions. I used to smart at it, recoil as i hate bigotry and intolerance. Now i shrug it off, it has become meaningless to me. Some people know being called transhobic will hurt and shame people and they do it deliberately to shut you up, discredit you, marginalise you. I don't care if i get called transhopic - not any more.

Exactly. 'Transphobic' has no meaning any more, it's just what pretty much everyone who isn't trans is now referred to as.

Things that are actually transphobic:

⁃	to ridicule, harass, or intimidate a person for being trans. 
⁃	to attack a person for being trans.
⁃	to hate a person just because they are trans.
⁃	to refuse to hire someone just because they are trans.
⁃	to exclude trans people from places that are open to all men and women just because they are trans.
⁃	to exclude trans people from opportunities that are open to all men and women just because they are trans.
⁃	to deliberately misgender a person after they have told you how they wish to be referred to. (Even if you don't personally believe that someone born a he can become a she, misgendering to someone's face is unnecessarily rude -- the problem is with the overall movement, not with individuals).

Things that are not transphobic:
⁃ to talk about women's rights, pregnancy, abortion, menstruation, birth control, motherhood etc as women's issues.
⁃ acknowledging that a person raised as a man will have benefitted from male privilege whether they think they are a woman or not.
⁃ to have spaces and opportunities specifically aimed at women where male bodied people may not participate.
⁃ to not want people who are male-bodied to enter spaces specifically for women when the only thing that distinguishes them from men is that they say they they are women.
⁃ to limit trans women's access to activities and opportunities open to women only where being raised male or being male-bodied provides a significant advantage to trans women over women.
⁃ to want to keep safe spaces for vulnerable women where male-bodied people may not go (DV shelters, rape crisis centres, hospitals, prisons).
⁃ to maintain single sex areas in bathrooms, changing rooms, communal showers etc where male-bodied people cannot enter.
⁃ to say you are a woman without particularly 'identifying' as a woman.
⁃ to ask to be referred to as a woman and not a ciswoman.
⁃ to want to be referred to as a woman and not a person (see: articles on midwifes changing wording to 'pregnant person' or 'birthing individual).
⁃ to view penises as male organs and breasts and vaginas as female organs.
⁃ to not be attracted to people with a penis if you're a straight man or lesbian, and to not be attracted to people with a vagina if you're a straight woman or gay man.
⁃ to not believe that a person can physically change sex. As long as you don't go around doing any of the things listed as transphobic above, it's still OK to not believe that a person cannot change sex.
⁃ believing that it is damaging to allow young children/young people to take potentially dangerous hormones.
⁃ to believe there is no such thing as a male brain or a female brain.
⁃ to not believe that trans women know what being a woman feels like, or that trans men know what being a man feels like. I am a woman and I do not know what being a woman feels like. Being uncomfortable with your body/sexual characteristics and not conforming to gender norms is not the same thing as knowing how it feels to be the opposite sex. Being feminine =/= being a woman; being masculine =/= being male.

Much of what we are told is transphobic is also contradictory. It's transphobic to say a penis is male and a vagina is female, yet people have surgery to change their penis or vagina because they don't agree that it matches their gender. Why is it OK for a trans person to be uncomfortable with their penis to the extent that they have it removed, but it's not OK for me to be uncomfortable with a penis in a woman-only space? If gender doesn't exist, how can you feel like you are one gender or another? Why is it OK that a straight trans woman doesn't want to have sex with me because I'm a woman, but it's not OK for a lesbian to not want to have sex with a trans woman who has a penis?

The trans movement has the potential to be incredibly damaging to women and if it sounds like I'm repeating what's been said a million times, it's because what is being repeated isn't being heard. Of course trans people need and deserve rights. Everyone needs and deserves rights. But one group's rights MUST NOT impinge upon the rights of another group. I have no problem with trans people whatsoever. I have no problem with trans people whatsoever -- it's their body, their mind, their life. They should be protected and they should have their opportunities and facilities and their safe spaces. But not at the expense of another large group of people (women). We could very easily create spaces and opportunities and facilities for trans people, but that's apparently not enough. We could talk about 'women and trans men' where women's issues are being discussed that may also affect trans men. We could talk about trans women when referring to achievements of trans women instead of referring to them as 'the first woman to....' etc. But none of that is apparently enough. Trans people want all the rights of a 'special' group without it being acknowledged that they're a group distinguishable from the general population at all (like trying to talk about gay rights while simultaneously saying you have to refer to just 'people' so it's impossible to tell that there's a difference between gay people and straight people). It's really not an easy thing to reconcile while being fair to everyone, but the solution isn't to marginalise women. It can't be.

As the trans movement tramples all over women's rights, there is something wrong and people should be talking about it ad infinitum until there is a change. People often say 'substitute trans for black and it's the same as racism' but it's not. If you want a race analogy, it's more like a group of white people identifying as black and insisting on shutting down black rights and eliminating the word 'black' from anything targeted toward black people because 'some black people are white'. Everything is geared towards putting the rights of trans people over the rights of women. Trans women's rights erases women by forcing women to accept that there will be male-bodied people in women's spaces (and women must not complain, because transphobic); trans men's rights erases women by changing the way issues that are specifically related to having female organs are spoken about by replacing word that refer to women with gender-neutral language (and women must not complain, because transphobic).

There have been many instances of reporting in the news of organizations pushing a move towards gender neutral language recently. There have been some that have pushed for people to stop using words that refer to men (like 'mankind' for example) in favour of gender neutrality. But despite years and years and years of women campaigning for rights and to be considered equal to men, this change and desire for gender neutrality in language only came about so that trans people would not be made to feel uncomfortable. Trans rights are already considered above women's rights. So until the trans movement stops erasing women, I will keep saying these things.

I am not hateful. I'm concerned for our future. What people refer to as a 'post-gender' society is a misnomer. A post-gender society, if things continue the way they are, is not post-gender at all. It's post-women. A society that puts men, women who feel like men, and men who feel like women, over and above all women. And women aren't even allowed to complain.

ErrolTheDragon · 24/09/2016 14:12

StarStarStarStarcan we print that out and frame it?

SpeakNoWords · 24/09/2016 14:13

No, no, no... The Wakowskis were both male presenting whilst directing all three of the Matrix films! It's a nonsense to say that they were the first women to direct a trilogy. Using that logic, Caitlin Jenner was the first, and only, woman to win an Olympic decathlon medal... despite the fact that women aren't allowed to compete in the decathlon...

venusinscorpio · 24/09/2016 14:20

NC, what a very cogently argued breakdown of the issues. I think I have seen every one of those things in your second list labelled "transphobia" by some Twitter twat or other. I see a lot of these people as basically internet trolls. Nothing more, nothing less.

BeyondASpecialSnowflake · 24/09/2016 14:21

But in trans-lala-land, Jenner was the first woman to win an Olympic decathlon medal...

venusinscorpio · 24/09/2016 14:23

I know Speak. Given that Caitlyn was inexplicably awarded a men's medal in a men's competition, Caitlyn should really hand it back, in fairness. The second placed man is the gold medallist.

Bambambini · 24/09/2016 14:33

Everyone is a "TERF" - everyone (even if they aren't even a RF or consider them self protrans). They just don't realise yet or have had their boundary crossed.

ageingrunner · 24/09/2016 15:14

I self-identify as a terf Wink Smile

ageingrunner · 24/09/2016 15:15

Sorry should have said great post nc16 👏

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 24/09/2016 17:34

Brilliant post, nc16, it really illustrates the issues in a nutshell.

I'm a woman who is fearful of women's rights being eroded and adroitly manoeuvred to make way - and give way - to trans-women. Women historically have been sidelined and unprotected and we should not have to defer and further give up our identity in favour of people who are not women.

If trans is as big an issue as purported to be then suitable facilities can surely be made available to all who need them - without encroaching on women's rights.

I don't find this topic easy, it's one that I would love to stick my head in the sand over, but I can't, it's just too important. Good call from MNHQ, we need more publicity and more general education about the impact that trans has and what it means to women.

LyndaNotLinda · 24/09/2016 17:53

Thanks nc16 - fabulous summary

MaddyHatter · 24/09/2016 18:56

absolutely 100% agree with you N16, brilliant post..

Unfortunately that last point of what is Transphobic (misgendering) is one the single biggest and most common things that posters on MN do.. and what they get deleted for.

The fact that certain posters persist in misgendering and outright refusing to call someone who has actually transitioned by their preferred pronoun needs stamping out.