Please can we have a Trans topic?

[LooseSeal]

The trans debate seems to be devouring the boards at the moment. It's spread across feminism, chat and AIBU and it's often not clear from a thread title that it's going to be another trans thread.

Considering that trans threads are accumulating in numbers and attract hundreds of posts and posters I think it's time trans was given its own topic.

amazing post N16. It lays it all out so clearly .

Unfortunately that last point of what is Transphobic (misgendering) is one the single biggest and most common things that posters on MN do.. and what they get deleted for.
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The fact that certain posters persist in misgendering and outright refusing to call someone who has actually transitioned by their preferred pronoun needs stamping out*

Completely agree with this. It makes us look petty and hateful to deliberately misgender. Even if you don't believe that the pronouns a person uses truly matches who they are, it's important to not actually be transphobic and refuse to use them -- doing that only weakens your arguments on everything that is not transphobic. This issue is so important to women that it's important to make sure that we are taken seriously, and the best way to be taken seriously is to argue a point without ad hominem attacks.

I don't think it is misgendering them, I'm not going to lie. I won't say that a man is a woman, when he isn't. Although I would offer it as a sign of respect if the respect is genuine, I'm the case of say, Miranda Yardley. But I won't call the Jeska fell runner a woman, or a she. I feel there's a principle at stake, and the effort not to look 'hateful' has led to women being steamrollered. I don't really see transactivists trying not to look 'hateful'.

Winchester, and thats why you're Transphobic.

It makes the rest of your arguments invalid, because you can't even extend someone that courtesy of being polite.

I'm not transphobic because I won't say that a man is a woman.

By the way, it doesn't make the rest of my arguments invalid. I would say that you throwing the 'transphobic' slur round so lightly, renders your own case rather weak.

I mean, not calling a man a woman, because he isn't a woman, is my case. From that springs every concern about women's spaces and women's erasure.

What would be the point of making my case and then saying, but don't worry, a man is a woman after all - just to be nice?

I've always been really conscious not to misgender - I've got tw friends and would never do it to them. Similarly, I won't refer to a tw online as he.

But I'm damned if I'm going to call a soldier who was caught wearing women's clothing a few months' ago and is now being lauded as the first female front line soldier 'she'.

And how can I complain about Lauren Jeska being referred to as a woman rather than a transwoman if I use the pronoun 'she' throughout? Actually, in my complaint to the BBC, I just referred to them as Jeska. I don't find either she or he right.

Danielle Muscato? Alex Drummond? Nope, not going to call either of them she.

And I don't think that makes me transphobic because I don't believe they are transwomen.

Misgendering is a strange concept. Those of us who believe that 'he' and 'she' are used for male and female people (and animals also) and reject the concept of innate gender identity can be asked to use chosen pronouns but we know we are lying. So either we use chosen pronouns and make ourselves liars and hypocrites or we don't and we make ourselves transphobes. We cannot win in this situation.
I despair of a situation where naming something for what is objectively is makes a person a hateful transphobe.

Is calling a trans man or trans woman a trans man or trans woman, misgendering? If I won't call a trans woman a woman am I misgendering them?

I think it's mis-sexing (thanks monkey) to call a transwoman a trans woman or a woman. Madrid and pro trans say it's misgendering to say that a trans woman is a man.

Maddie not madrid

Is calling a trans man or trans woman a trans man or trans woman, misgendering? If I won't call a trans woman a woman am I misgendering them?

I don't think so. I think saying trans woman or trans man is absolutely fine.

Misgendering is a weird concept especially when you don't believe trans women/men are women/men. I think there's a difference though between referring to people in the news like Jeska as a man and referring to regular trans people to their face with the wrong pronoun. For some reason I think the first one is fine but the second one is not (even though I don't believe a trans woman is a she, it feels mean to say 'he' to their face). In reality I think I'd just avoid using pronouns altogether and only use the person's name, so I didn't have to 'lie' or use the pronouns.

I suppose it's like if someone asked me to call them by a ridiculous nickname instead of their name I'd do it to be respectful to the person, but I'd still think it was a ridiculous name.

Manatee I would do the same. Probably.

Ok so would this...

Xxxxxx is not a woman, they are a transwoman

...be misgendering

I am trying to get it clear in my head.

There are probably people who wouldn't be happy with that, but I don't see it as misgendering.

Some people are not happy with transwoman, and prefer trans woman. It's a minefield!

And how can I complain about Lauren Jeska being referred to as a woman rather than a transwoman if I use the pronoun 'she' throughout

I use transwoman and 'they' or name. I won't use trans woman, woman or she.

Well if there are people who prefer "they" as a singular pronoun, then it must be misgendering to use they for someone who considers themself he/she.
I go with their name 99% of the time. It looks clunky, but at least I'm neither wrong nor transphobic. Though of course you then get those who think that even avoiding using any pronouns is transphobic....

I wasn't aware there was a difference between transwoman and trans woman. I write trans woman because trans is an abbreviation of transgender and (I don't think) it would be grammatically correct to write 'transgenderwoman'.

Manatee - I only had my attention drawn to this issue of spaces the other day. I think the reasoning goes "trans woman" = trans used as adjective, the usage preferred by transactivists, indicating that they're just a subset of women, versus "transwoman" = MTT, different from a woman.

Manatee - trans is a prefix denoting 'across'. Transgender, transsexual, transatlantic, transpennine , transvestite.... So transwoman is a perfectly grammatical construct.

You learn something new everyday....

Trans is not an adjective for woman unless they are ftt

So transwoman is the word

I'm somewhat confused with the trans labels. Is a trans woman a post-op transvestite? Or a transvestite?