Please can we have a Trans topic?

[LooseSeal]

The trans debate seems to be devouring the boards at the moment. It's spread across feminism, chat and AIBU and it's often not clear from a thread title that it's going to be another trans thread.

Considering that trans threads are accumulating in numbers and attract hundreds of posts and posters I think it's time trans was given its own topic.

venus, it is a classic passive aggressive shutting down technique when you can't deal with dissent to suggest that there is something odd about someone defending their position. You are attempting to put them in a position where you can attack them whatever they do: if they defend their position, it's really odd that they're so "invested"; if they don't, they're hurling insults around and disappearing when challenged.

As for answering your question, maybe before you start making passive aggressive suggestions about my motivation you could read the thread and discover where I have explained my position already.

You know perfectly well that the comparator was trans women.

who are men. Men are more violent than women. Blonde men, gay men, working men, unemployed men, educated men, transwomen, men with big feet, just men. Who are in more violent than women as a population. They're all men. So use the right comparator Judy or one might think you were deliberately trying to mislead.

The number of trans women around is tiny, and the vast majority of trans women simply want to get on with their lives quietly.

Except it only takes one transwoman to be 'the first woman in the army on the front line'.

It only takes one article on CBBC to tell children that you know whether you are male or female by whether you 'feel' like a boy or a girl, girls liking girl things and boys liking boy things.

merrymouse: you are again using a classic debating technique of choosing one specific issue and generalising it. The fact that you say you haven't seen evidence-based logical argument on one particular issue doesn't mean either that it hasn't been made, or that evidence-based logical argument on other connected issues hasn't been put forward and mispresented.

If people want to post the same comments ten times in one week, they are obviously free to do so, whether that is in a separate topic or elsewhere. They would actually get more attention, and educate more people, if they could think up something original occasionally.

Why have a new topic when there is a perfectly good feminism topic?

I think a general principle that all trans topics go in feminism would work fine.

No, Judy I asked a simple question. Answer it, or don't. Who gives a fuck. I don't. But don't claim that I have shut you down. That is passive aggressive. I'm not going to walk on eggshells around you.

I think a general principle that all trans topics go in feminism would work fine.

well that's not going to happen

who are men. Men are more violent than women

Classic undistributed middle - which is classically used in order to mislead. Men are more violent than women. X is a man. Therefore X is more violent than all women. Or: Men are more violent than women. X subset of people are men. Therefore any member of the X subset is more violent than all women.

Except it isn't true, is it?

This subject needs as much exposure as possible, to educate as many people as possible

More than feminism, disability, relationships, politics, the EU? Really?

I don't think I said it needs to be more talked about than those things? It all needs to be talked about

And the things is that they don't educate people, because they put them off.

It may put you and others off but it will be going to good use elsewhere.

Thankfully a trans section won't happen, anyway.

What are you on about?

Did you not notice the words 'as a population' in there? Or did you just slide over them accidentally on purpose because you don't have an argument

Why would you think it was misleading? Transwomen are a subset of biological men and men as a class are more violent than women as a class. That fact is beyond all doubt. I'd like to see some evidence that demonstrates transwomen are less violent than other men. Do you have some?

you are again using a classic debating technique of choosing one specific issue and generalising it.

No, I am choosing two of the most up to current trans issues in the news at the moment - there are more.

You, on the other hand aren't providing any counter argument.

I think a general principle that all trans topics go in feminism would work fine.

Which would be a little like shunting all issues brought up by the 'SN brigade' to SN. The reason that SN isn't a ghetto is that, as you said, people don't have to post there.

I have answered your question upthread, venus, and at some length, in response to a question raised by someone else. It is very instructive that you haven't attempted to answer the points I made about your question but instead have resorted to a totally unfounded suggestion that that you have to "walk on eggshells" round me. Another example of attacking rather than engaging, sadly.

Put it in with religion and all the other madeup shit that doesn't exist.

They would actually get more attention, and educate more people, if they could think up something original occasionally.

Luckily/unluckily there doesn't seem to be a shortage of original stories to discuss at the moment.

Perhaps you could link me to your post where you answered my question Judy. Rather than just vaguely refer to it and expect me to search through the whole thread when on my phone. Or we can continue being passive aggressive at each other.

Judy each one of your arguments gets knocked down one by one but you keep going. Are you by any chance a 'false flagger' whose sole purpose is to keep the thread going so that as many people as possible see it and change their minds about the Transborg?

(Transborg is super new word I read on MN yesterday )

Waitrose, the point is that the existence of separate threads on feminism, politics, the EU, and disability doesn't prevent those topics being talked about.

Winchester, of course I saw the words "as a population." But it's irrelevant when talking about a specific tiny group of people.

Transwomen are a subset of biological men and men as a class are more violent than women as a class

Undistributed middle again.

merrymouse, I don't think anyone is suggesting an inflexible rule; if there were a separate topic, or indeed a general principle that trans threads go in feminism, it would work in just the same way as SN and EU threads. Discussions could still be started elsewhere but could be moved on the basis of whatever criteria that MN use to move, for instance, EU discussions into the EU thread.

Whilst people mischaracterise all these threads as 'trans', they are not. They are all about the erosion of women's rights, safe spaces and ability to be counted and measured as a group

The thing is, we rarely if ever see threads about those issues unless they are related to trans issues.

Judy my original text in italics, your reply in bold. An extraordinary comment. Are you really suggesting, nay accepting, that the main thing right now which is eroding women's rights, access to safe spaces and the ability to be counted as a group is the trans-campaign?

I have to say I am not in total agreement - there is sexism at work, attitudes of people like Donald Trump, the uneven impacts on women of fiscal cuts - which also concern me for their impact on these issues too. I think where I do agree with you is that the trans-activism campaign (which I completely separate from the vast majority of trans people who, I agree with you, just want to get on and live their lives quietly) is so pernicious and misunderstood, and because it operates by threatening and silencing anyone it sees as dissenting is silencing debate elsewhere. So I do agree at least that it is the most insidious and dangerous issue impacting women's rights.

Just saying it's misleading, doesn't make it so, Judy. What I posted is solid fact.

Transwomen are a subset of men, men as a class are more violent than women. I am prepared to accept that transwomen might be less violent than men for whatever reason. When I see the evidence. Until that time, I don't believe it.

Waitrose, the point is that the existence of separate threads on feminism, politics, the EU, and disability doesn't prevent those topics being talked about

You've lost me..

SN threads are moved so that people can be given more targeted, effective advice.

They aren't moved because people find them boring or upsetting.

You know what, venus, if you can't be bothered to read my posts before criticising me, I think just for now I'll leave you to work out how to use the "find" facility by yourself.

Winchester, the trouble is that you aren't knocking down my arguments: far from it.

I have to go out now so will leave you to carry on logic twisting amongst yourselves.

I'm afraid that until you demonstrate that transwomen are specifically different to men in terms of propensity to violence than the principle 'men are more violent than women' applies also to 'transwoman are more violent than women'.

So any time you want to offer up that proof would be great.

I'll refrain from saying what I really really want to say.