Please can we have a Trans topic?

[LooseSeal]

The trans debate seems to be devouring the boards at the moment. It's spread across feminism, chat and AIBU and it's often not clear from a thread title that it's going to be another trans thread.

Considering that trans threads are accumulating in numbers and attract hundreds of posts and posters I think it's time trans was given its own topic.

because you're perfectly capable of finding the threads for yourself, and reading them.

I'm fed up of them, i'm fed up of seeing them, i think we need a topic for them to be in like every other thing on here that has its own topic.

I don't agree with the argument that 'we need to be seeeeeen' is a valid one for not having a topic.

The point of a topic is that if thats what you want to talk about or learn about or debate, you use that space to do it and stop clogging up the general areas of the board with it.

The whole of AIBU is robust and intimidating.

I think intentionally ghettoising feminist subjects is a bit of a retrograde step.

How is putting them into a publicly available forum "ghettoising", and why is any more ghettoising than pushing EU threads into the EU forum?

No. It's not about trans it's about women's rights. Anyway you'd get the same number of threads. Just hide each one individuals.

Trans is juggernauting into every area of women's lives. It's not niche. It's a pernicious nightmare.

So NO NO NO.

Again, it's the massively pro-trans people who want to ghettoise it. The people who don't care about women's rights.

It's really too bad for you that you're fed up with them. As I'm sure you realise, your views aren't everyone's. But it's nice that you've identified exactly how much we are personally allowed to care or be concerned about this issue. I didn't realise there was a scientific formula. And as for calling people superior and saying that they think they are more intelligent than others. Pot. Kettle.

How many trans threads are actually going at the moment? Is it really a huge amount. Threads might get long and heated but they still just appear as one line along with the many many more threads. Just don't read them.

It's really too bad for you that you're fed up with them. As I'm sure you realise, your views aren't everyone's. But it's nice that you've identified exactly how much we are personally allowed to care or be concerned about this issue. I didn't realise there was a scientific formula. And as for calling people superior and saying that they think they are more intelligent than others. Pot. Kettle.

With a cherry on the top 🍒

The point of a topic is that if thats what you want to talk about or learn about or debate, you use that space to do it and stop clogging up the general areas of the board with it.

You're missing the point. This subject needs as much exposure as possible, to educate as many people as possible. There are still many people (clearly on this thread) that need educating.

If they were non issues, it should be possible to explain why in a clear, evidence based, logical argument. 'Dissenters' tend to get 'jumped on' when they fail to do this

On the contrary, what we regularly see is dissenters being jumped on purely for dissenting. I've regularly seen entirely evidence- based logical arguments on these threads getting misrepresented purely for the purposes of criticising the poster. For instance, from this thread: "A vulnerable group of people? What? Men?" FFS.

Whilst people mischaracterise all these threads as 'trans', they are not. They are all about the erosion of women's rights, safe spaces and ability to be counted and measured as a group

The thing is, we rarely if ever see threads about those issues unless they are related to trans issues. What is, frankly, tedious, is that every single time someone manages to dredge up a news story that puts trans people in a bad light it turns up on here and the same comments come churning out. If it's the tenth thread in one week, does it really all need to be said again?

One of the main functions of MN (apart from its primary mission of supporting parents) is as a platform for 'anonymous arguing', open to all but particularly attractive to women old enough to be mothers or grandmothers. Its a great place to thrash out ideas

Absolutely. So how about putting the discussions in a place where people who are interested can find them easily?

There shouldn't be a ghettoised trans topic that can be safely ignored by people who want to bury their heads in the sand

By that token, there shouldn't be a ghettoised SN topic that can be safely ignored. God knows, there are far too many disablist types around who could do with educating. But the point is, of course, that having an SN topic doesn't prevent topics about disability going in AIBU, Chat and elsewhere. So why are people so scared of a trans topic?

But OP thanks for starting another trans thread, that isn't about a specific injustice or abuse, but an opportunity for us to express how important this issue is to us as women generally, and how more people need to be talking about it.

Thanks also to all the pro-trans contributors for bumping it, and for giving us a chance to express our extremely cogent arguments for why the trans movement represents a serious erosion of female rights and safety.

Look, it all helps. Every exposure given to this issue helps enormously. Do keep up the good work.

How is putting them into a publicly available forum "ghettoising", and why is any more ghettoising than pushing EU threads into the EU forum?

1. Because it would be against the wishes of the posters.
2. Because debate about the EU was encouraged. It was all over every form of media for months. Nobody was trying to prevent discussion - there was certainly disagreement, but people were supposed to express their views.
3. Arguably we would have been in a better position now if everyone had been quite a lot more educated about the EU - maybe it would have been better if there wasn't a separate topic?

Why are you so invested in telling people where they should post, Judy?

what we regularly see is dissenters being jumped on purely for dissenting. I've regularly seen entirely evidence- based logical arguments on these threads getting misrepresented purely for the purposes of criticising the poster.

This isn't at all true. What we regularly see are people coming onto threads, using a few insults (transphobic, vile, bigot and so on) who are engaged immediately with salient questions such as 'what your definition of woman'
'what is gender' and so on; but who rapidly disappear when the ice water logic of gender critical posters becomes too much for them.

every single time someone manages to dredge up a news story that puts trans people in a bad light it turns up on here and the same comments come churning out. If it's the tenth thread in one week, does it really all need to be said again?

Yes, of course. If there are ten instances of trans damage and abuse and no one is taking any notice, no one is doing anything about it and nothing ever changes, one has to keep on talking about it until someone does notice and something does change. I hate to use the apartheid comparison, but would you have told black South Africans to stop bothering about reporting racial violence after the first ten? Because 'does it really need to be said again?' That's just breathtakingly stupid Judy.

Trans is juggernauting into every area of women's lives
Again, it's the massively pro-trans people who want to ghettoise it. The people who don't care about women's rights.

Two incorrect massive generalisations that clearly illustrate the points being made on here about scaremongering and attempts to shut down dissenters. As I've pointed out, you don't have to be pro-trans to disagree with a tiny section of society being demonised by, for instance, the constant citing of a small number of cases involving violent trans women whilst ignoring the greater danger posed by violent women.

Because she can't

Really? how are they massively incorrect Judy?

It's juggernauting into education, primary and secondary. Into health. Into physical safety. Into maternity. Into crime. Into work equality. Into scholarships we hear this week. Into sport. Into parenting. Into refuges and safe spaces.

Is this not general enough for you Judy? Did I leave anything out?

And yes, I'm afraid you are pro-trans if you think trans women are women. As soon as you realise the emperor has no clothes - you realise it needs to be talked about loud and long because of the threat to ourselves, our daughters, our mothers, our sisters.

ignoring the greater danger posed by violent women.

fuck me - you do realise the vast majority of sexual and violent crimes are committed by men? which is what transwomen are. So no - the greater danger is posed by violent men including the subset transwomen.

It's not just about women's actual physical safety, it's also about their comfort, freedom to talk about women's biological issues, dignity, privacy and bodily integrity. Things which you seem happy to throw under the bus because it's mean to point them out. Most of the "gentle soul" transpeople are not standing up and saying "don't do these things in our name", are they? Therefore the fightback is up to women. As ever.

This subject needs as much exposure as possible, to educate as many people as possible

More than feminism, disability, relationships, politics, the EU? Really?

And the things is that they don't educate people, because they put them off.

Why are you so invested in telling people where they should post, Judy?

Thanks so much for supplying another classic example of the way people try to shut dissenters down, venus.

*I hate to use the apartheid comparison, but would you have told black South Africans to stop bothering about reporting racial violence after the first ten? Because 'does it really need to be said again?' That's just breathtakingly stupid Judy

No, that's breathtakingly stupid. Why do people persist in the notion that having a separate thread equates to telling people to stop bothering? Have people who post in the feminism and EU threads stopped bothering? And the equation of issues concerning a tiny number of trans people with apartheid is both crass and offensive.

How is that shutting you down? How extraordinarily passive aggressive.

Why are so many people so unwilling to answer simple questions? I'm forced to conclude that it's because you are well aware that your argument wouldn't stand up to any challenge.

It's incorrect because it is not juggernauting anywhere, Winchester. The number of trans women around is tiny, and the vast majority of trans women simply want to get on with their lives quietly. Issues concerning a handful of people cannot juggernaut anywhere.

And yes, I'm afraid you are pro-trans if you think trans women are women.

Yet another misrepresentation. Please don't try to tell me what I think, you won't get it right.

you do realise the vast majority of sexual and violent crimes are committed by men? which is what transwomen are. So no - the greater danger is posed by violent men including the subset transwomen.

And another one. You know perfectly well that the comparator was trans women.

Really, this thread is a feast in terms of illustrating the point people are making about the way dissent gets pushed off these threads.

On the contrary, what we regularly see is dissenters being jumped on purely for dissenting. I've regularly seen entirely evidence- based logical arguments on these threads getting misrepresented purely for the purposes of criticising the poster.

I have never seen an evidenced based logical argument supporting the idea that gender exists as something other than a social construct or that concepts of masculine and feminine gender aren't harmful or that there aren't significant differences between male and female bodies. My experience is of frustration at an argument being made with no substance to back it up. I would really like to hear some of these logical evidence based aarguments.

For instance, from this thread: "A vulnerable group of people? What? Men?" FFS.

I don't think that comment was helpful - of course anybody can be vulnerable. However, it is not representative of the rest of the comments.

If it's the tenth thread in one week, does it really all need to be said again?

That is how forums and social media work. Lots of people post on subjects that are important to them. Sometimes this can seem overwhelming, but there are also lots of threads about lots of other issues.

But the point is, of course, that having an SN topic doesn't prevent topics about disability going in AIBU, Chat and elsewhere. So why are people so scared of a trans topic?

If people can post about trans issues everywhere, great, but isn't the whole point of this trans topic supposed to be that they don't? Why have a new topic when there is a perfectly good feminism topic? Or do we need a separate feminism topic to discuss "gender issues". I know feminists can divide into weird subgroups, but feminists against talking about gender is a new one on me.

They do educate people Judy. Plenty of people are totally unaware of what is happening until they read about it here without the agenda and propaganda. Your dissent is welcomed. People are quite capable of responding to any point you make.

Why do people persist in the notion that having a separate thread equates to telling people to stop bothering?

Actually YOU told people to stop bothering.

Look this is where you said it my lovely

What is, frankly, tedious, is that every single time someone manages to dredge up a news story that puts trans people in a bad light it turns up on here and the same comments come churning out. If it's the tenth thread in one week, does it really all need to be said again? JudyCoolibar (™)