Please can we have a Trans topic?

[LooseSeal]

The trans debate seems to be devouring the boards at the moment. It's spread across feminism, chat and AIBU and it's often not clear from a thread title that it's going to be another trans thread.

Considering that trans threads are accumulating in numbers and attract hundreds of posts and posters I think it's time trans was given its own topic.

is it that people are trying to shut debates down or are they just bored - which is the impression I got with the EU Ref?

The main reason I don't want a separate topic is that I had no idea what was going on till so many threads were running. If you'd asked me two years ago, I'd have said a trans person was someone who had medical treatment to change sex. Now I know that's not what it "means" any more and it's only thanks to MN that I know.

All of those are of much more general interest, and don't attract the level of vitriol against a very small and vulnerable area of society.*

How can the problem simultaneously be that these issues don't interest most people and that too many people are posting about them?

Maybe we should have a separate topic for people who enjoy whining about what and where other people choose to post? I'm getting bored with this sort of thread.

Maybe we should have a separate topic for people who enjoy whining about what and where other people choose to post? I'm getting bored with this sort of thread.

That's what 'site stuff' is for, isn't it?

Please DON'T let's have a trans topic.

As someone pointed out in another thread, trans' stories are mainstream now. The media doesn't seem to feel a need to siphon them off into a niche somewhere - the 'first female soldier' , a 'trans' child and Caitlyn Jenner's womanly thoughts are all deserving of laying before us as 'News' so I don't see why the issues should be shoved off in a sub-forum just because some people don't like to see any opinions on the whole trans thing except wholehearted approval.

I think, in general, it would be good for there to be a supportive somewhere on MN for trans issues to be discussed without becoming an endless stream of black and white repetitions of the same old anti-trans rhetoric.

Ideally it would be good if the whole of MN was open and able to talk about these things, but I really don't see that ever happening. I don't know whether it's the majority of MN posters, or just the most verbose/most impassioned, who so vehemently disagree with all things trans. Either way, I avoid as many of the trans threads as possible because they just leave me feeling so sad and angry.

Maybe what is needed is a distinction between threads debating it on a theoretical level/using examples of high profile cases/personal opinions, and the infinitely more complicated cases where a MNer is posting with a real life issue where they/their child/their partner/whoever is struggling with trans issues and they want advice rather than a massive bunfight over whether transwomen are women, because in their situation that's the last thing they want to be facing. But that's something we as a community should be able to self-censor rather than looking for a new area within the forum.

an endless stream of black and white repetitions of the same old anti-trans rhetoric.

Sorry, correcting myself, but that's not a fair statement. Should be;

an endless stream of black and white repetitions of the same old anti-trans and pro-trans rhetoric.

I agree I'm sick of it.

who wants you to shut it down?

I don't want to shut down the debates and conversations.. its important.

I'd just rather you did it over 'there' and not wave it about in front of me like its THE MOST IMPORTANT TOPIC IN THE WHOLE WORLD all the time.

I'm sick of seeing it... its becoming like opinion and dicks.. you might have one, but i don't really need it taking out and waving in front of my face.

If an important thing like Feminism can have its own board full of topics, why can't Trans issues?

trans' stories are mainstream now.

But so are stories about the EU, politics and disability.

How can the problem simultaneously be that these issues don't interest most people and that too many people are posting about them?

Who said that too many people are posting about them? To be honest, the issue is that the same people are posting multiple threads. I wouldn't mind if they actually had anything different to say, but they rarely do. I also wouldn't mind if they followed the pattern of the one thread on this subject that I can recall in which there was a civilised and constructive discussion, as opposed to what tends to happen with people who dare to dissent being regularly misrepresented and attacked.

I think it's horrifying that other women are trying to shut these debates down.

That's an extremely strange interpretation, and rather illustrates my point about misrepresentation. Since when was asking for a separate topic shutting a debate down?

The trans issues affects ALL of these areas

But then you can equally validly say that politics, disability etc affect all other areas.

The same applies to the "You can just click away from the thread" argument. Take the opposition to this idea to its logical conclusion and you have hardly any separate topics at all.

No, I don't think it's the same as having specific boards for other topics. If you want to ask if you're being unreasonable, you can post in AIBU no matter what the thing is you might be unreasonable about. (AIBU to think cake is foul/AIBU to have asked this man to leave the changing rooms/AIBU not to want to travel to this wedding/AIBU to think my disability isn't a reason for my boss not to include me in meetings).

And the other main place that threads where posters are really concerned about the trans narrative eclipsing and eliminating women's rights is, naturally, feminism.

If somebody wanted to post about being trans, there's LGBT - though they do not have to post there, as you could post about a 'trans child' in parenting, education, or AIBU as well.

If they want to post about yet another instance of problematic trans activism, that might fit in politics, AIBU, or FWR.

Since when did Mumsnet have a responsibility to make sure nobody ever has to click on a thread they may not be interested in? Mumsnet is massive - if you want not to read about trans things, there's bloody loads of it apart from that!

If an important thing like Feminism can have its own board full of topics, why can't Trans issues?

Trans issues almost invariably intersect with feminism. A lot of trans threads are there anyway.

No i don't think there should be a separate trans topic. I had no idea about any of the these issues until I started to read about them on here. I certainly don't agree with all of what's said but these issues are important and having an honest discussion about them is important.

I still stand by my original post. Going by some of the replies here this topic still needs a lot of education...

I suspect that a lot of the whiners would really prefer for threads they might not like didn't show up in Active Convos. Isn't that where most people pick up on new threads from?

See, the use of "whiners" and the baseless assumptions about their motives exactly demonstrates my point about the aggressive stance taken towards people who dare to hold a different opinion. I for one have no problem whatsoever with these threads showing up in Active Conversations, and obviously if they were in a separate topic they still would show every time someone posted on them because, y'know, that's how Active Conversations work. If we were genuinely delicate little flowers who couldn't cope with that it's easy enough to deal with, after all.

Come off it Judy. You are one of the most pro-trans on here, which is of course fine, but don't make out that it's not in your interests for the topics to be sidelined or that all is equal with the Active convos. Everyone knows that the boards like chat and AIBU have the most traffic and that's the reason that people post in these areas (not just trans either).

I assume nothing, merely suspect. If I sounded aggressive rather than maybe a bit pissed off, I apologise.

But then if you're happy for them to be there, happy to post on them, happy for them to be in Active Conversations.... where's the problem with things as they are?

I don't think it should be given a topic to itself because I do think it publicises issues that many women aren't aware of.

But I agree that when you are aware of the issues; it's tedious to see the same people having the same arguments using the same histrionic examples. I look at them all with the hope there'll be something new but there never is.

And I'd like some discussion about what to do in reality if you're unhappy about some aspects of the trans - movement. I see too many women who appear to think that endlessly arguing on MN is striking a blow for womens rights and it really isn't.

Posting how angry you are on an anonymous forum that most of the world doesn't give a shit about does fuck all. And I'm not saying i'm doing anything in RL because I'm not; but I also didn't engage with all the 'This is SO important, women need a space to say this, MN what ARE you doing?, I have tears in my eyes reading all these women taking a stand' hyperbole that was on the Spartacus threads.

Galvanise in RL - absolutely! I may or may not get involved (female spaces I would; insisting on calling a TW he; no I won't so I wasn't Spartacus) at least it would be making a real stand. Posting anonymously on an Internet forum then getting on with your life thinking you'r making a stand is meaningless if you ask me.

Don't we have an equal need to raise awareness of disability and SEN?

Yes, and we have discussions about disability and Sen on many different boards (along with health, politics etc) - there is a sn board, but it is mainly for support and advice.

Galvanise in RL - absolutely! I may or may not get involved

Every time there is another thread, or another issue is raised, more and more women come along and say wow, I had no idea. This is how people become inspired or moved to become active in RL. How do you know all they are doing is posting on MN?

I don't absolutely know that but I rarely see 'this is how we do this in RL' threads. There was a link for MN 'refugees' to a sub - Reddit forum on one thread which I looked at and was horrified by the abuse on there -some of which was directed to a MN trans poster and I don't want anything to do with that.

There's a thread in feminism now looking for gender critical feminists groups (by a prolific poster who talks sense mostly and you would imagine was active in RL) which hasn't come up with much other than a radfem group which I don't consider myself to be.

I honestly don't see any RL galvanising. I see anonymous arguing in a 'safe space' when people have openly admitted on the threads that they wouldn't e.g say that in RL to a real trans person.

The reason they don't post on MN saying 'here's what I'm doing in RL!' is quite obvious really. The abuse targeted at people by transactivists is extremely vicious. I wouldn't dare mention anything about RL awareness raising on MN due to fear of what might happen to me. I've had enough abuse already on my anonymous twitter account, thanks.