This is bullshit. Thread #2

[BeyondSpecialSnowflake]

Following on from...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/a2716008-Seriously-MN-this-is-fucking-bullshit?msgid=63181862#63181862

Welcome, AGuyCalledHelen - thank you for posting!
Without wanting to sound like a wanky brown-noser, I really appreciated your blog post that was linked to on here. Really made me think.

Lumidingo it is not uncommon for TAs to threaten suicide in order to shut down a discussion which doesn't follow their acceptable narrative.

It was obvious in the paragraph you quoted that I was referring to TAs and their bullying and abusive tactics. Why did you imply that I was talking about young people struggling with their identity? Was it an attempt to silence the conversation about women (& lesbians in particularly) facing threats from TAs?

So any woman who's infertile, or incapable of becoming pregnant, has never 'lived as a female'? My closest friend recently had a hysterectomy after several years of the symptoms of her PCOS getting worse and worse. She and her husband never had children. I'm sorry, I can't say I agree with your logic. I'd be deeply ashamed to tell her she's never lived as a female.

This is also a good point, BUT that post was only in reply to the question of what exactly is 'living as a female'

Which has not yet been answered?

and what HornyTortoise says about gender identity.

This obsession with gender is so damaging.

Helen - This is such an important point. These TAs don't care who they hurt. Women will suffer, TW will suffer, all at the hands of the TAs who are, basically MRAs.

Do you all not like journalists? Why's that?

Arf

Horny - I'd except by 'living as a woman' they mean: being paid less, being threatened with sexual assault and rape, not being taken seriously by doctors/colleagues/police etc, being expected to fulfil all caring duties, taking more of the domestic burden.

All actual examples of actually living as a woman. Not exactly something people would want, nor could ever really experience (if they are self-hating enough to actually WANT to go through all of these negatives) simply by 'changing sex'.

Thanks Empress.

Whilst I don't want to intrude and certainly don't want to take over the conversation or derail. I'm happy to answer any questions or give my opinions on stuff when asked. I'm not an authority on anything and I feel like a minority voice within the trans community but I'll engage honestly and thoughtfully if I can.

Bungo I think it's more a case of others can't discuss it or suggest that there may be some MH issues going on. I'm trying to tread carefully here!

Living as a woman:
Having men leer at you
Having to pay VAT on san pro
Being pregnant, although obviously it's something some women don't experience, no man does
Being paid less for the same job
In some countries suffering FGM, being used as sex slaves, honour killings, being made to cover
Being judged on appearance and "sexiness"
Having to learn self defence in case a man decides he wants sex with you against your will
Being afraid to walk alone at night
Having sporting acheivements ignored in favour of men's
Being accused of being hysterical
Being expected to do most of the drudgework/housework/childcare/wifework
Being judged for not wanting children.
I'm sure there are more.

Hyper sexualisation, porn, waxing, physical grooming (nails, hair, etc)

"Sure we can argue that "woman" isn't as simple as "adult human female" and that "man" and "woman" are imbued with all the social baggage of gender expectations etc"

Yes, Woman is as simple as Adult Human Female. Consult any dictionary if you don't believe me.

Gender bullshit expectations exist but are not a prerequisite for being a woman. If an adult human female is raised on her own by lions or grown up in complete solitude in a forest, she will still (and always) be a woman.

And if an adult human male were to be raised with frilly skirts & pink ribbons, treated inferior to other boys, told to be nice and know her place, he will still (and always) be a man.

Gender expectations flow from one's sex. They don't determine it.

For fucks sake I have endometriosis and had fertility treatment. Not the same.

They make all transwomen look bad and when the backlash comes (which it will) it's going to make trans lives harder.

I have deep faith that there will be backlash, but the sad cynic in me thinks this will happen when it cannot be ignored anymore. IE. Lawsuits from children whose parents gave them hormones, high profile cases from 'women who matter' over rapes. the damage will be done, but the backlash on transwomen will be huge.

I do think that some backlash will start when transowmen start competing in the Olympics. I simply cannot see that very stupid decision ending well.

Re the fertility thing. I have various gynae issues. I probably can't have children. I might one day have to have a hysterectomy. This doesn't change the fact that I belong to the sex class of childbearers and I have suffered because of that. Biological women with fertility issues still have female biology.

Helen - I think I love you

But yes, these militant TAs are causing damage to both 'cis' (god I hate that word) and transgendered people alike. I do not believe they represent the majority view AT ALL. Infact quite the opposite. While the TAs will argue for infringing the rights of women by allowing males into, for example, womens changing rooms, the view among trans people I have spoken to (and by this I mean able to speak to properly without being labeled a bigot) is they simply want their OWN safe space, where they will not be ridiculed for how they are. They do not want to make others uncomfortable. And everyone I have spoken to said they would be happy with an option of 'mixed gender' changing rooms along with the current 'male' and 'female' options. Or even smaller 'trans women' and 'trans men' rooms they could use. This way everyone gets what they want, right? But no, this is not good enough for the TAs who say that women/men simply MUST agree to have the opposite gender changing with them or else they are transphobic.

No, sorry this is not transphobia. As you said transphobia is wishing harm and such on transpeople. Something I accept probably does go on, but something I have never witnessed myself.

Breaking down the ridiculous gender stereotypes would go so far in actual progression than what we are dealing with now, which is basically an attempt to stifle opinions and remove the rights of others in favour of a minority.

Thanks CoteDAzur. I believe you and I agree.

Are journalists forbidden from these forums? Do you all not like journalists? Why's that?

I think, though I could be wrong.......
But MNHQ do not allow journalist.
If you are found to be a journalist, you are instantly banned.

As for a child threatening suicide, they need help, the same as anyone else threatening suicide.

As I and many others have put before, I was that child (I didn't threaten suicide) but from 5 yo I screamed and cried that I wanted to be a boy.

I didn't scream and shout as a teen, but I certainly didn't fit the teen girl mould, so I felt different and a bit of an outcast.

If I were that child today what do you think would happen to me? How do you think I would be influenced by think society, peers, and helpful experts?

Elsa not meaning to single you out, but MNHQ have a duty to provide parents with a place to talk with other parents of trans people.

I think they do too. As it stands if your child tells you that they are trans or struggling with gender you have sites such as MN where people with their own agenda (not meant in a bad way at all) shout you down, tell you they would never allow it, tell you that you're abusive etc. This is down to anger because of the situation as a whole.

Or you have a certain support site where if you go on and say 'look my child is struggling with gender at the minute I don't know what to do' they have their agenda and you get shouted down for struggling with it, told that you have to be wholeheartedly supportive or you are a shit parent. Possibly because they have to validate their choices, I don't know.

I want to be able to start a thread saying my relative wants to be known as X and be referred to as a X and I'm being supportive but cautious. I've been down X route, tried X for support, and we are working through it at the moment can I have some support please, and not be called names and insulted.

Horny speaking from my own experience here I couldn't define what feeling like a woman is, certainly in the case of the person in my life who is having gender issues nothing has changed. They look the same still play rugby, box, dance, wear make up etc but prefer to be known as a different name and pronoun. We are investigating why, years later we have no answers still, but the amount of shit we've encountered along the way is disgraceful.

opposite gender = opposite sex. This gender rubbish has been ingrained in me since childhood, so I slip up occasionally.

Gender identity is bollocks once you realize that gender stereotypes are bollocks.

I wouldn't say that. I think there's a fundamental disconnect between a person's gender identity, and the notion of gender roles/stereotypes. One is an internally experienced sense of one's self according to societally-coded notions of gender, and the other is the myriad of expectations that society polices based on any particular person's expressed gender. A young girl recognizes herself to be a girl, how she expresses herself runs the gamut from princess dresses to Spider-Man onesies - and external factors (Parents, family members, peers, authority figures) will filter their perceptions of that young girl based on socio-culturally coded stereotypes of gender expression. Those perceptions don't infringe upon that girl's notion of self - she remains who she is regardless. It seems like a strange thing to assert that because the policing of gender expression happens, gender identity must therefore not be experienced. A study conducted by the University of Washington seems to support the hypothesis that gender identity is consistently held in both cis and trans children: www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/transgender-kids-show-consistent-gender-identity-across-measures.html

If I were that child today what do you think would happen to me? How do you think I would be influenced by think society, peers, and helpful experts?

Are you familiar with gender-affirming therapy and what it entails?

Helen, my curiousity as I often see handmaidens arguing 'oh but no, most transwomen aren't like that (ironcally agreeing that the TRA's are scary and abusive) transwomen you know, not TRAs, do they mainly hold the views of TRAs?

Also, other than Miranda, do you know of any positive examples of blogs etc I can read and share?

I loved your blog btw. It was very moving, and I'm so sorry for the shit you've gone through.
Men as a class have a lot to bloody answer for. They won't, they. Because Not All Men Are Like That.

Elsa that sounds like a horrible situation and I am sorry you and your relative are suffering because of it.

However I still stand by my opinion of allowing a child to go through stuff like that, or even encouraging it, is wrong, and is abuse.

I do not believe that without the gender rubbish inflicted on us by society anyone would ever feel 'like a male' or 'like a female' . We have been conditioned to think this way. Thats it. There is no living as a woman or living as a man, only living as a person and choosing your own rules. Rather than encouraging our younger generation to go down the route of surgeries and hormones, we should be teaching them to just be...who they are. It is damaging (psychologically especially) to say that a child is 'trans' at the age of 4, or that there is any real indication of this during childhood. in The only real difference between males and females is biology, which can never fully be changed. Everything else, is bullshit.

A boy who likes dresses and is 'feminine' is not a girl in a boys body.

To clarify on the journalist subject. Journalists are allowed, but they have to make a media request and pay a very small fee if they want to use MNers in order to gather information for their work.

It was obvious in the paragraph you quoted that I was referring to TAs and their bullying and abusive tactics. Why did you imply that I was talking about young people struggling with their identity? Was it an attempt to silence the conversation about women (& lesbians in particularly) facing threats from TAs?

Well, I don't think you're saying that all such assertions are a form of abuse, but it follows from your comments that you think at least some are. I feel like there exists the possibility for a person to be struggling with gender identity to the point where suicidal ideation is occurring, and I'm trying to understand how you would differentiate between the two. How would you establish the motivations of a trans person saying that they're suffering with thoughts of suicidal ideation? What would make you attribute them to genuine distress? What would make you attribute them to an attempt to control?