This is bullshit. Thread #2

[BeyondSpecialSnowflake]

Following on from...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/a2716008-Seriously-MN-this-is-fucking-bullshit?msgid=63181862#63181862

I worry about a society that would rather let individuals take vast quantities of hormones and undergo radical surgery instead of letting people wear what they want, have a job in something that interests them or decide who they would like to have sex with.

Welcome AGuyCalledHelen.

lum
You answered a question with a question.

Please answer, what you think would happen to me now?

SpecialAgentSpartacusRoars

To be absolutely honest, most TW that I know these days are fully bought into the view that TW are women. TW that have actually taken the time to explore gender in any meaningful way are, in my experince, few and far between.

Most TW do just want to get on with their lives and don't wish harm on anyone, but also fail to understand the structural issues behind the things they believe. I can understand why they believe it. We are told it. We are told that we are women by healthcare professionals, by support groups and by the trans community. We are told that misgendering and deadnaming is actual violence.

I have major issues with the way the medical profession tries to support rans people. I belive it underpins a lot of the issues we see at the moment.

In hindsight I wish when I first had counselling somebody had explained to me about gender being a social cosntruct and that it's OK to be man like me instead of telling me that I'm actually a woman. I think it's lazy and dangerous and harms TW as well as women.

Horny although I disagree with what you say as a blanket statement for all parents of children struggling with this issue I respect your opinion on it and your right to voice it.

Struggling to keep up with the thread.

Helen thank you for posting and welcome.

Random yep. Iran has one of the largest trans:non trans ratio in the entire world. Iran

Oh, did I mention it's not legal to be lesbian/gay there?

Lumidingo - Again, sorry I respectfully disagree, even with studies showing I am 'wrong'. I will attempt to explain why but it won't come across right no doubt

As babies, we are born either male or female. Biologically. Womens bodies have the ability to carry children, male bodies have the ability to produce sperm to go towards creating said children.

Babies do not think as we do. They are just babies. The want attention, food and love. Thats it.

Over the course of their lives, they are moulded to believe gender stereotypes through various sources. From what they see around them, how they are treat and what they are taught along with other factors.

'Gender' and gender identity..are simply societys views ingrained into us. It goes back to the beginning of the human race and as such it will be a hell of a long time before any of it changes as its just accepted as the norm.

Do you believe, a baby born and kept in a completely controlled gender neutral environment, would have a gender identity? Or are we simply made into who we are by other people and their views...is what it comes down to really.

IMO...a baby wouldn't even know what 'girl'/'boy' was so they couldn't possibly have a gender identity if it wasn't taught.

Writing that down had made this all a bit mindfucky to me now actually :S

I worry about a society that would rather let individuals take vast quantities of hormones and undergo radical surgery instead of letting people wear what they want, have a job in something that interests them or decide who they would like to have sex with.

What if a person wishes to avoid a puberty that will exacerbate their gender dysphoria due to the development of secondary sex characteristics that clash with their identified gender? I don't think the problem is that trans people aren't allowed to wear what they want, I think it's that they're experiencing a disconnect between their gender identity and their sex, and they're alleviating the discomfort they may feel due to that disconnect by bringing their gender expression into alignment with their gender identity, in some cases. If a girl doesn't want to grow chest hair and broad shoulders, it seems harmful to suggest that she should just... deal with that, rather than pursue measures that will stop those developments, and in the process, increase her happiness and wellbeing. It's her body - who are we to determine what she's expected to do with it?

I took some time to upload a short documentary on this topic, if anyone's interested: I found it quite encouraging and very heartfelt.

I worry about a society that would rather let individuals take vast quantities of hormones and undergo radical surgery instead of letting people wear what they want, have a job in something that interests them or decide who they would like to have sex with.

Indeed.

I'd suggest putting Lumidingo's name through google before engaging with them.

Oh, don't bother their last post makes their position clear and that they believe in transing prepubescent children

Please answer, what you think would happen to me now?

I asked if you were familiar with gender-affirming therapy because it seems to me that it's currently recognized as the standard procedure for helping children who display gender-variant behaviour, and I imagine that you'd probably be treated according to that method. I think that affirming children in their behaviours and experiences is probably much healthier than attempting to make them conform to what other people expect of them, and it seems that the main role of the therapy is to let a child figure out for themselves what works for them in a positive, affirming environment. So that's my answer. I was just hoping you were familiar with the topic so I didn't have to type all that out! Oh well!

Plaudits from Rebecca Reilly-Cooper.

Oh, don't bother their last post makes their position clear and that they believe in transing prepubescent children

Do you feel like it's possible to make a child transgender if they're not to begin with?

It's her body - who are we to determine what she's expected to do with it?

This is a good point also. It is entirely your own choice what you do with your own body. Once you are an adult. There is a reason that cosmetic plastic surgery and such is not recommended for under 18s.

Reported your post Empress
You been on the already?

Ah. Well, that actually makes me feel much better!

Helen that's so odd to me. I cannot fathom why medical professionals would encourage transwomen to believe something that isn't possible, society will never accept and will not come 'true' until science is at a point where I assume, in the West, things will be much more gender 'non conforming.,' and the validation demanded from women won't be tolerated anyway! As a non trans, I'm aware that as horrid as things are now, and they will get worse, it will also rubber band either back or hopefully, to a better future in my lifetime. I don't think anyone honestly (no matter what they say to transwomen) believes that transwomen are the same. if they were the same, straight men would have no qualms dating a transwoman. But it's a very easy bandwagon to jump on, you get to abuse women and get how tolerant you are while doing it!

And how are words violence? I don't get that. Even the most horrible shit I've heard in my life, or DH as a black man, aren't actually violence, surely?

I cannot imagine how worried you must be for transwomen. I imagine the backlash will be similar to what muslims go through.

Do you feel like it's possible to make a child transgender if they're not to begin with?

Make a child transgender, no. Make a child believe they are, fuck yeah. Which is why I am against it completely and would much rather if my son wanted to wear dresses and such he be allowed to do so rather than convinced that this makes him a girl deep down.

If a girl doesn't want to grow chest hair and broad shoulders, it seems harmful to suggest that she should just... deal with that, rather than pursue measures that will stop those developments, and in the process, increase her happiness and wellbeing.

Not sure if that's the right way round but I get the point you're trying to make.

The tricky thing here is balancing off the structural and bigger picture issues with the support for the individual. First we have to question why the child feels like that? There is no evidence that being trans is in any way a biological/physiological phenomenon. It's much more likely that it's a social issue. None of us are entirely comfortable fitting in the gender boxes we are put in ( and why the hell should women be - it's an oppressive box) so the fact that some girls can't cope with being a girl shouldn't be a surprise. Surely encouraging them to take testosterone and have a double mastectomy rather than dealing with the societal issues that make them feel like that is wrong at a social level.

And I'm not sure it even helps at an individual level. I truly wish that when I first saw a counsellor they had taken the time to explain about gender as a social construct and tackled my self loathing by telling me that it's OK to be a man like me rather than telling me it's OK because I'm actually a woman.

This isn't about forcing people back into the boxes and just deal with it. It's not about telling me I must wear men's clothes and have a man's hairstyle or telling a woman that hey can't have a buzzcut and tattoo's annd wear men's clothes and do "man" things. It's about freeing us from those expectations without making us believe a lie in order for it to be OK.

I have dysphoria and have taken steps to minimise the masculinity of my body so I get how that feels, but I'm much more stable now that I can be honest about sex and gender.

Basically, what I'm saying is it's simply not thought out long term by transwomen. they're creating a rod for their own backs (to put it bloody mildly) when the fall happens.

Helen, thanks so much to you and Miranda for your posts. I think laziness on the part of the powers that be is the reason for a lot of this. It's just easier to tell women to STFU.

What if a person wishes to avoid a puberty that will exacerbate their gender dysphoria due to the development of secondary sex characteristics that clash with their identified gender?

Studies show that a huge percentage of pre pubescent children (I've seen different studies on this so it's somewhere between 75-95%) who don't take puberty blockers will go through puberty and not go down the hormones and surgery route.

Non bias counselling needs to be offered, I paid privately for my relatives first lot of counselling, although we have it through the NHS now and my relative is slowly coming to terms with what is happening to their body, but it is a slow process.

I don't think we should do anything pre puberty that could impact on a child's future fertility. After puberty is more of a grey area imo and should be taken on a case by case basis.

There is a reason that cosmetic plastic surgery and such is not recommended for under 18s.

Elective surgery, yes. Children undergo cosmetic surgery procedures from very early ages - a surgery to repair a cleft palate is a cosmetic surgery, for example. We wouldn't restrict children from undergoing such corrective surgeries under the age of 18, because it's recognized to have a severe impact on the quality of life of the individual.

WPATH, a worldwide association concerned with the health and treatment of transgender individuals, regards surgery to be a medically necessary procedure for some people, which is by definition not an elective surgery. Source here: www.lambdalegal.org/know-your-rights/transgender/transition-related-care-faq

Basically, what I'm saying is it's simply not thought out long term by transwomen. they're creating a rod for their own backs (to put it bloody mildly) when the fall happens.

TBH