This is bullshit. Thread #2

[BeyondSpecialSnowflake]

Following on from...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/a2716008-Seriously-MN-this-is-fucking-bullshit?msgid=63181862#63181862

I think that trans prisoners should be put in protective custody, not just dumped on women, regardless of what they have downstairs.

This would put a hell of a lot of rapists off identifying as female in the first place, I have this weird suspicion.

From the other POV about the transwomen at the pool, this is a deeply religious area. they're absolute, disgusting arseholes and yes, I do think they, personally are perverts. But I also worry for their safety. There are a lot of men around here (and women) who would go mute if one of them had the living shit kicked out of them, and sadly that's a very real possibility - homophobic, poor area. Police intervention is a huge issue for many complex reasons.

It's quite easy for the people with money close to us to be Right On, but they're goading these transwomen into putting themselves in a strange situation. Someone recently commented on the FB thread about that and were shouted down for being 'bigoted against the working class.' it's a hell of a lot more fucking complicated than that, and people around here close ranks, fast. they prefer to deal with issues themselves, something my DH is forever frustrated and ranting about.

Is it right to egg them on, putting them in quite a dangerous position? Gay bashing still happens around here. I sadly think it's almost an inevitability that someone will freak out about their elderly mother/wife/whatever having been in a changing room with multiple willies.

I've posted about my trans experience Lum, asking people to post about their children's sexual identity is highly inappropriate

Horny What about those people who have rejected hormones for their children but support them if they want to live as a male/female for now?

Have any of you met any trans children, or know of one at your children's school or anything like that? Do any of you have kids that are trans? Are there any of you with close personal friends who happen to be trans?

Not children no, admittedly. I have a friend who has fully transitioned into a woman though. This is my only direct experience of these issues, and admittedly I may well be biased considering this person is seriously considering 'detranisitoning' (unsure if that is a real word) as they now believe it was the wrong choice.

Horny What about those people who have rejected hormones for their children but support them if they want to live as a male/female for now?

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Thats a completely different kettle of fish. Mainly as I do not believe in 'living as a female/male' as thats all just about stereotypical nonsense...ie. Having certain 'female' attributes, wearing dresses and such. Thats not living as a woman to me at all. Being a woman is so much more than that. And vice versa.

Honestly, if I was a child today people would be trying to put me into the 'trans' box I expect. I hated dolls, I never wore dresses, everything about me is 'sterotypically' male. I do not believe this means I am a male in a female body though. I simply believe that gender stereotypes are total bullshit

Elsa not meaning to single you out, but MNHQ have a duty to provide parents with a place to talk with other parents of trans people.

Like you point out, because this now affects all of us and we're so frustrated, people are hjacking those threads to vent their frustration. It's the flip side of the coin I suppose. MN owe us no to silence us, but they also owe parents a place to discuss these things if it is affecting their children - and all evidence shows this is becoming a huge problem.

Lum doesn't sound at all like a journalist...

I have a family member who is trans (FTM). It is an incredibly difficult situation - the individual is extremely unwell, with an eating disorder, ASD, long standing mental health issues and many issues around their sexuality.

I absolutely disagree that transing children is not abusive. It is.

Someone mentioned earlier (I'm sorry on phone & can't find it) that the tactics TA use are exactly the same as those described by Lundy Bancroft in relation to domestic violence perpetrators. To that list (threats of violence, gaslighting etc) I'd add threats of suicide - a common tactic by both abusive men & TAs.

Can anyone seriously answer what 'living as a female' means. Without resorting to stereotypes? I am totally open to changing my views and always have been. Heck, I did a total 360 yesterday from being totally 'transpeople should be able to do whatever they please' to the stance I have now after being pointed in the direction of stuff I had never seen before and did not know existed. Equally I am very open (and actively encouraging) the other side of the coin. I don't rigidly stick to views.

Can someone link the article about the Spartcus article? I can't find it.

'Living as a female' to me means being stereotypical. Makeup, long hair, 'girly' etc. IMO it would be much more useful to breakdown these stereotypes to allow ANYONE to live as they wish to do, than to encourage people to mutilate their bodies as an attempt to validate feeling different. I actually cannot think of any other way to describe 'living as a female' except sterotypical made up rubbish and appearance? Hence me asking.

Neither Tortoise

Actually, reusing to admit you were wrong seems to be a huge part of the problem here. Some TRA likely feel uncomfortable to 'step down' after feeling ashamed if everyone around them doesn't think they should be ashamed.

Circular problem.

lani How sad. I have extensive MH issues, and as a teen I actually used to wonder if I was a boy because of my sexual fantasies. I'm bisexual, but before my husband I didn't know i was. I thought I was a lesbian. And before that, due to a deeply religious upbringing, i was naive, confused and wondered if I was a boy, because there were more examples of this than lesbians. Thank fuck i didn't ruin my life! I don't know if I agree that someone with severe MH issues should be 'allowed' to transition. But that also does not feel right to me.

I do think it's sad we're telling girls they can walk away from being treated like girls - won't happen unless they can pass as men and also live a lie about being a female. Women simply are not afforded the privilege of being Left Alone.

The only real example I can think of 'living as a female' is the nine months you are pregnant, and any time spent breastfeeding.

Which isn't anywhere in the scientific realm of possibility for transwomen in the near future.

I wonder if not being able to carry children is part of the issue with people who struggle significantly more than the Ada Wells? Is that the reason for the anger at us?

I think the psychological element is the elephant in the room here.

I think the psychological element is the elephant in the room here.

Yes, but it is offensive to discuss this apparently. Sadly it is no surprise to learn that many trans have other mental health issues.

Agree Venus. But as Horny says, treading there is apparently very dodgy ground.

I worry greatly about the vulnerability of young people who are unsure or conflicted about their sexuality, those who have mental health issues (e.g. eating disorders in the case of FTM), those who have been abused and particularly those who have an ASD.

Just a very quick note of support to you all. I'm a transwoman who quite frankly has had enough of the bullshit, insanity, narcissism, misogyny, lesbophobia and downright abuse of women by so many transactivists. I'm not saying this for "feminist cookies", tbh my reasons are much more selfish. They make all transwomen look bad and when the backlash comes (which it will) it's going to make trans lives harder.

It's great that women are standing up against this and that hopefully people are starting to take notice.

This isn't about transphobia. I've honestly never met a woman who actually wishes harm on transwomen (although I've met many transactivists who wish harm on women). It's about the ability to have honest discussion without women's genuine concerns being ignored and silenced.

Sure we can argue that "woman" isn't as simple as "adult human female" and that "man" and "woman" are imbued with all the social baggage of gender expectations etc, etc. But none of that changes the fact that women have been oppressed for millenia because of their female bioloogy.

Of course I want to rid the world of hatred and bigotry towards trans people, but definitely not at the expense of women.

Stand up and be heard.

(as for my pronouns - I don't care. Whatever you're comfortable with.)

Why would that change the discomfort we would feel about having biological men in our intimate sex-segregated spaces?

I don't remember suggesting that it would, but it seems strange to refer to pre-pubescent children as 'men', no?

I've posted about my trans experience Lum, asking people to post about their children's sexual identity is highly inappropriate

Is it? I had to identify my son's gender when registering an account, that seems strange to be opposed to something you're required to do before writing your first post, no?

Lum doesn't sound at all like a journalist...

Are journalists forbidden from these forums? Do you all not like journalists? Why's that?

Someone mentioned earlier (I'm sorry on phone & can't find it) that the tactics TA use are exactly the same as those described by Lundy Bancroft in relation to domestic violence perpetrators. To that list (threats of violence, gaslighting etc) I'd add threats of suicide - a common tactic by both abusive men & TAs.

So if a child asserts that their gender identity isn't aligned with their sex, and this bothers them to the point where they feel suicidal, are they abusing their parents? I'm afraid I don't quite understand what you mean. Are all assertions of suicidal ideation abusive? How would you distinguish between an abuser threatening suicide as a form of control, and a suicidal child asking for help?

The only real example I can think of 'living as a female' is the nine months you are pregnant, and any time spent breastfeeding.

So any woman who's infertile, or incapable of becoming pregnant, has never 'lived as a female'? My closest friend recently had a hysterectomy after several years of the symptoms of her PCOS getting worse and worse. She and her husband never had children. I'm sorry, I can't say I agree with your logic. I'd be deeply ashamed to tell her she's never lived as a female.

Foxton, Horny, Tortoise - is it? Oops, I just called them that elsewhere. The vocal TA people are by their own admission depressed, anxious, with a frequent tendency to suicidal thoughts. I thought that mentally ill was the recognised term for all that nowadays (can't say I always agree with it, but that's a languag-play for another day)?

So if a child asserts that their gender identity isn't aligned with their sex

This is exactly the issue here though. I am glad it had been put in this way.

Gender, and sex are different. Gender identity is bollocks once you realize that gender stereotypes are bollocks. A child who does not 'identify' with its gender is not necessarily 'in the wrong body' nor should they be made to feel that way. The child is simply being a child, following their own interests instead of what society deems acceptable, wanting to wear what they wish, and/or having stereotypical 'gender' traits (also made up by society...eg. Males are hard, females are emotional)

Once these ridiculous gender sterotypes are broken down, so many people will feel comfortable in their own skin without feeling like they need to resort to attempting to 'change their sex'

Helen, thank you! Welcome to MN!

Horny - I'd except by 'living as a woman' they mean: being paid less, being threatened with sexual assault and rape, not being taken seriously by doctors/colleagues/police etc, being expected to fulfil all caring duties, taking more of the domestic burden.
Surely this is the description, no?
Oooooh I seeee, they don't mean that, they mean 'wearing a dress and a wig whilst retaining all male privilege'
My mistake