This is bullshit. Thread #2

[BeyondSpecialSnowflake]

Following on from...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/a2716008-Seriously-MN-this-is-fucking-bullshit?msgid=63181862#63181862

I have neither the intelligence nor the education to express myself as well as so many of you here and am glad to be part of this discussion.

I'm finding some of this quite distressing as I feel as if I don't know what I'm allowed to say or even think any longer. In addition the correct terminology is confusing. I'm old enough that we used to talk about 'sex change' operations. I know that's no longer appropriate. We used to say transsexual, now the term is transgender. I get that. But some of the other terminology is beyond me.

The debate here is helpful but there are some things I still don't understand. I'm seeing new (to me) acronyms, such as FTT/MTT. I've seen MTF previously and understand it, but is that now unacceptable and to be replaced by MTT? Is MTT Male To Transwoman? FTT Female To Transman ?
Also can someone explain 'othering'. I've Googled it and am more confused than ever.

Thanks itsallgoingtobefine!

Both MTF and MTT are terms used mainly by feminists who want to emphasise that trans women are men so I doubt anyone will pick you up on either. Obviously some transactivists and their allies might have something to say. You're right - Male to Trans (woman).

Serano is also perhaps overestimating how much Serano is read as a woman. Serano is more likely to be read as an MTT and people in SF are treating Serano as if Serano reads as a woman.

Othering is a bit more complex as it is a valid concern and something we should be very wary of given history etc. But the term is also used to shut people's valid concerns down too and I find it's often used by "progressives" in this way and certainly by some transactivists and their allies.

Around 25 years ago I had a colleague whose partner was MtF and they both identified as lesbian. I had many discussions with lesbian friends at the time about why this was not acceptable to them and why neither of the couple were welcome in their friendship groups.
I confess I didn't really 'get' it at the time. TA was not as prevalent and mainstream as it is now, so it just seemed a little 'out there' rather than any judgement of what it meant to be a woman. To my young self, at any rate. Older rad fem friends were very adamant that it was an encroachment on lesbian identity.

ThumbWitchesAbroad,

Words are becoming meaningless with the trans logic:
TW = woman,
lesbian = woman attracted to other women,
so TW attracted to other women = lesbian.

And a woman attracted to people with vaginas (aka homosexual female) became a vagina fetishist these days.

Also a male like Julia Serano calling lesbians cis dykes in an article that isn't suppose to be some hateful statement (in theory) being acceptable is just awful to me.

About "gay" FTT, I think very rarely but it happens, I've heard about it and even saw an article (I'm posting a pic), but they are not really a threat to gay males since they are females.

To complete the jigsaw puzzle, what Blanchard realised was that transsexuals fell into two types; homosexual (males who are attracted to males) transsexuals and non-homosexual (males who are romantically attracted to females, both females and males, or who are asexual) transsexuals, and that non-homosexual transsexuals are autogynephilic; they are stimulated erotically at the thought of themselves as a female.

Thus, transsexuals generally fall into two types: homosexual transsexuals and non-homosexual autogynephilic transsexuals. Male (MTF/MTT) who are attracted to females are therefore autogynephilic.

Why would someone who is attracted to females be autogynephilic? It has been suggested there is an 'erotic target location error' in the autogynephilic male, the erotic target is not outward (a woman) but inward (the transsexual's fantasy of themselves as a woman).

Anne Lawrence explains how autogynephilia leads to males transitioning here.

There are several questions about autogynephilia that remain which can be resolved by empirical testing, for example are there any homosexual autogynephilic transsexuals? This is a very good question and I have seen examples of autogynephilia in homosexual transgender individuals. I have also had reported to me, from two gay males I know personally, and have done for some years, that some gay men have a history of childhood/pubescent autogynephilia (this activity was not confined to merely 'dressing up'!). So, I know that some gay males also have histories of autogynephilia.

Cantor has suggested that MRI scans on the brains of homosexual and non-homosexual transsexuals supports Blanchard's 'two type' theory of transsexuals.

Thanks, Outof and Miranda - although I'll have to read your post again in the morning, Miranda as it's gone 2am here and I need a much clearer head to get all that straight (and read the links).

Do you remember the TV programme about the men that dress up in rubber woman suits? One of them who was quite old said why would he date a woman his own age when he had this. Like he was dating the rubber female version of himself.

If you aren't bisexual then you are a bigot. Great.

I'm still trying to bend my head around that quote.

The writer says that for a lesbian to not be sexually attracted to a TW is transphobic.

Ok. Unpack that a little.

It may be a fully intact male body, with male shape, male musculature, male size and proportion, but the writer identifies as a woman inside so a lesbian MUST recognise that women's bodies are varied and include male type bodies. If you are lesbian, it's woman to woman and that means all women, you can't just pick the um, born women ones because that's who you realised you were gay by being physically attracted to from an early age. Very naughty of you!

Ok. I don't agree but I can just about follow that logic. The writer equates it to not being attracted to fat/unfit bodies, so sees it as a hesitation over a mere cosmetic difference. And it's driven, also understandably, as so much of this is, by deep hurt at defining as a woman but finding others have boundaries that mean they don't unquestioningly validate and participate in that personal redefinition.

Where I get completely lost is that the writer is stating that lesbians must all

a) buy in without hesitation or question to removing all separation from male/female bodies: the person is what they say they are. The evidence of your eyes is irrelevant and so is your natural sense of physical attraction. Both must be ignored/re educated.

b) Lesbians may not place any boundaries around what they are attracted to: that is very naughty. If told a body is female they should be open and willing to have sex with it. Hang ups about not liking penises, different musculature and all the rest of it are silly hang ups that mustn't be tolerated. It's a woman's penis, you're a lesbian, abandon everything you ever knew and get on with it.

c) How does the writer propose that I overcome the fact that shamefully, appallingly, male shaped bodies just don't attract me?

I would like the writer's views on how to force someone to learn to become sexually attracted to something? Re education courses with specialised pornography that you must use until you are successful? Fake it until you make it and realise what you were missing? Brainwashing perhaps? After all, no one's ever tried using straight sex, intimidation, corporal punishment or brainwashing gay people before after all to try and force their orientation to something more socially acceptable - hang on a minute. Yes they have. For centuries. It didn't work. And it's been known for decades as being severely abusive and homophobic.

This is the definition of FUBAR. Seriously.

Whoops, my apologies for the term 'straight sex' which is obviously wrong and unacceptable, that should be PiV sex.

Seriously, MNHQ you're going to have to add an edit button, the grammatical hoops to jump through to manage to express a thought on this subject in a non offensive way is like trying to play hopscotch in a minefield.

Really liked magdalen burns videos, very easy to understand for someone not knowledgeable about any of this, but she talked about QT snowflakes. What's that?

Still catching up (p26) but I saw Elsa's question about whether/why there is a difference between a MTT becoming a woman and a woman becoming a mother through adoption. For me, I think the difference is life stage and congruence with existing biology. The mother role builds on a natal woman's existing female socialisation (boo to gender/steroetyping and a patriarchal society) and biological pathway, an extension of growing up female, going through puberty. Because men also have a role as fathers/caregivers, the idea of 2 (gay) men raising a family is seen as less problematic and has been more readily accepted. A MTT is 'jumping tracks' and trying to inhabit a biological and social space that they didn't start on.

It's hard to convey the rich broth of diminished expectation, sexist assumptions, male entitlement and frequently unwanted sexual interest or worse that most women have to work through as they grow up and go about their daily lives, and yet still manage to turn up trumps, succeed and make a huge contribution to society, the economy, scientific advances etc. It's really hard to bite your tongue when (some) MTT (or TRAs?) pops a frock on and starts moaning about how hard done by they are. Only this week the ongoing 20% gender paygap was reported - coupled with the motherhood penalty. And that's not even touching on male violence, FGM and all the other shit women have to put up with. It feels like appropriation - offensive in the same way Rachel Dolezal's actions were.

Someone said on a recent thread that the only time they "felt how it was to live as a woman" was diring pregnancy. I feel the same, but mainly because it brought a lot of systemic, subtle misogyny into sharp focus. You only have to look at the persistent underfunding of maternity services and the hugely dehumanising (and sometimes catastrophic/fatal) experiences some women have giving birth to realise women are second best & expected to suck it up. Perhaps that's why MNers are pretty pissed off about all of this. You are dealing with women who are on the sharp end of a society geared towards the needs of men and worried about their children's futures.

That's the thing. I will not centre trans women in my feminism as demanded by liberal feminists and transactivists. Their problems are very different from mine. A lot of these liberal feminists are very young. They haven't really had much experience of the world yet. They're finding their way. I had some quite stupid opinions when I was 20. Hopefully they'll realise that one day without having to suffer the shittier aspects of being a woman.

I think the living as woman thing is about bodily autonomy. Leering men, access to abortion and contraception, expectations around appearance ( pubic hair, boob jobs, pornification of society), porn itself, prostitution. All things that only or disproportionately affect women.

I've led a sheltered hetero life but I know what it is to have a sleazy man try it on with me and be told I'm a " fucking lezzie" when politely making it clear I'm not interested. I have been flashed at when I was a young teen. Been nervous walking alone in the dark, been the subject of threatening sexual advances at bus stop in the dark, wouldn't travel to certain countries as a female for my own safety. Male privilege is not having experienced any of that, surely?

Exactly Bird.

I have plenty of reasons to fear men. I take precautions to protect myself but If MTT are allowed in the changing rooms of my gym, I would not go, especially at night as I often do, to have a late swim or whatever when it is quiet.

It's fucking madness. I'm so angry with the 'I don't mind a TW in the toilet/changing rooms' crap and you are all being bigoted and I'm so liberal'. Honestly, this virtue signalling crap might make people feel good about themselves but it will curtail women's freedoms and put them at risk. I am genuinely scared about it. I don't have daughters but I can imagine the horror of mothers who do.

It's happening in the US with this Obama 'guideline' re allowing trans into the locker room/bathroom of their choice. If schools don't comply, they will lose their funding. Where the US goes, others will follow. It's terrifying.

Really liked magdalen burns videos, very easy to understand for someone not knowledgeable about any of this, but she talked about QT snowflakes. What's that?

Is it 'queer transgender' (as distinct from LGB)?

I know what it is to have a sleazy man try it on with me and be told I'm a " fucking lezzie" when politely making it clear I'm not interested.

That's it exactly. Nail on the head Bird it's just the same.

The cotton ceiling thing shows what a male view of women's sexuality these TAs have. A couple of years ago there was a hoo hah because a woman who makes lesbian porn said she would not consider making a porn film with an MTT. Much outrage from TAs with one MTT putting on huge pressure for her to have sex with that person on film. The usual argument came up that lesbians who use dildos are hypocrites and the female penis is just like a sex toy. Typical male attitude of women as passive receivers of sex. The woman made the point that she is not interested in facilitating an orgasm for a male bodied person whereas she loves women's bodies. The TAs could not relate to this point at all. For me, that is very telling.

I honestly can't understand the cotton ceiling thing. I understand what it means but really can't get my head around how anybody can think like that.

Nobody has any entitlement for ANYBODY to want to have sex with them. If they do great. If they don't fine.

Surely it has to be about mutual attraction in every case of consensual sex? It's just super rapey and I don't get it.

Just caught up

ego i hope this isnt fawning or sycophantic but i am glad you didnt leave

I find a lot of people on here very eloquent but i find it hard to express myself on here ( lots of my RL freinds would laugh themselves silly at that as i am never short of words in RL)

And its getting worse...now when someone quotes things like "lady penis" i just think "fuck off"

Lesbians are transphobic "fuck off"
Lady penis "fuck off"
TW are better women "fuck off"

I have lost all my words