This is bullshit. Thread #2

[BeyondSpecialSnowflake]

Following on from...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/a2716008-Seriously-MN-this-is-fucking-bullshit?msgid=63181862#63181862

Serano had 'SRS' in around December 2009

And as people have pointed out, it's violent imagery, because it is a play on words of the "glass ceiling" that shuts women out of power and they have to smash through.

Well, yes exactly. What on earth is cotton ceiling if it's not about smashing through women's knickers? It's totally rapey misogynistic awfulness. Their (lesbians) unwillingness to have sex with a penis is to be dealt with by force? Is this the majority of TW or are other TW up in arms disgusted about this?

at that Beast article

I did find it telling though that when they are talking about how they got 5 replies to their dating ad, they then go on to only discuss the conversations they have had with men and women.

It seems that the argument is that transwomen are women, and therefore lesbians should sleep with them, but there seems to be little discussion of transwomen sleeping with transwomen - in this context are transwomen not women after all?

RE Daily Beast article -Not clear if he still has a penis. No mention or surgery or op but several of 'transitioning'. Does this term mean undergoing op or identifying as a women?

As pp have said, when this comes up they often say that don't want to date other trans people as they find it triggering. Go figure.

I don't understand, how is it "triggering"? It makes them realise they aren't women because or it makes them feel they are gay (male/male sex)? Please excuse naivety.

Could someone kindly advise me how to save a thread? The discussion on the first thread was so enlightening and insightful and I was so sorry it was deleted. I would like to make sure I can keep these three threads to show to my children and husband, and am worried about the risk that MNHQ will take them down. Frankly, I think I will nominate them for classics, but just in case want to save them.

Could someone kindly advise me how to save a thread?

The easiest way might be to make sure you are viewing all posts on one page, and then just do a print to PDF?

Birdandsparrow

Here's a crash course in what 'autogynephilia' is:

Autogynephilia is a male's paraphilic tendency to be aroused at the thought of himself as a female. A 'paraphilia' means 'recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges or behaviors generally involving nonhuman objects'.

There are four different types of autogynephilia which may occur completely, partially, or in combination with other types (complete or partial):

Transvestic autogynephilia: arousal to the act or fantasy of wearing typically feminine clothing (this is what people often mean when they talk about autogynephilia, but it is much more nuanced);
Behavioral autogynephilia: arousal to the act or fantasy of doing something regarded as feminine, also covers 'interpersonal autogynephilia';
Physiologic autogynephilia: arousal to fantasies of body functions specific to people regarded as female (there's some way-out stuff on the Internet of males getting a kick from pretending to be pregnant); and
Anatomic autogynephilia: arousal to the fantasy of having a normative woman's body, or parts of one (breasts are a common fantasy, ofter the autogynephiliac will want breasts but to keep his penis and testicles, this is an instance of 'partial autogynephilia').

Autogynephilia can also be compared to being a sexual orientation.

Here's a piece I wrote taking something someone else has written and pointing out the real world instances of autogynephilia the author was (unwittingly) describing:

'17 signs I am an autogynephiliac and didn't know it'

I think it's always good to look at real world examples as it makes the topic easier to understand and it also demonstrates the phenomena does exist.

Basically it means that there is one rule for them and one for everyone else, bird.

So they are the only people for whom it's acceptable to reject potential sexual partners on the basis of being trans.

But yes, it makes them feel othered and reminds them of their trans status. I sympathise with that, but not to the point of rapey logic about vilifying people who don't want to have sex with trans people. It's very narcissistic IMO.

Thank you, miranda and yardley. I am just flabbergasted by all of this. I studied a bit of feminist theory as part of my degree in politics but that was 20 years ago now. Reading all this I think I would have to describe myself now as a radicalfeminist, which has surprised me. I think I would have always thought of myself as a liberal feminist, but that seems to have lost its way completely.

From the article quoted above: when the overwhelming majority of cis dykes date and fuck cis women, but are not open to, or are even turned off by, the idea of dating or fucking trans women, how is that not transphobic?

Leaving aside the repulsive terminology (and I apologise for the offensiveness of it but felt that quote was important)

I'm a gay woman. (Actually I could go on at length about the particular definition of my exact personal label, but it's irrelevant to anyone but me and I don't feel the need to bore others with it). According to the logic being put forward by this article, if I decide to approach any straight woman as a sexual partner, if she is available but rejects my advance she is homophobic and needs to stop distressing me with her irrational, unfair boundaries.

The sheer entitlement to women's bodies and indignation about them in any way impeding access is absolutely breathtaking. Women may not have boundaries. Women may not make choices. The responsibility for everyone's feelings is theirs and it's their job to do all the accommodation. It's absolute hard core Lundy Bancroft 'Why Does He Do That'.

I know bird. Until a couple of years ago I would have considered myself a liberal feminist. I don't any more.

Totally agree rumbling, it's abuser speak.

miranda Thank you for the crash course and links.

Thanks rumbling, great post. This shit gets worse and worse

rumblingDMexploitingbstds

That quote from Serano is utterly disgusting; a heterosexual male publicly shaming women who won't consider them for sex because they are male.

Looking at the article, the writer seems to completely consider the fact of getting 5 response from men (and less from lesbians or transwomen) as evidence that men as a sex are more open to a relationship with a transwomen.

But, frankly, there are just a lot more men than there are lesbians so inevitably there are more who would consider it. And it is easy to give a considered and thoughtful response online, did any of them take it further?

I am stunned that anyone feels that someone else should fancy them. Surely one gets turned down as a date for all sorts of reasons. Not liking penises being a pretty fundamental part of being a lesbian being one of them, but just for being an arrogant knob being another.

That Serano article!

Could it possibly be that the lesbians Julia's meeting don't want to date Julia not only because they're not attracted to Julia, but they are accurating reading the vibe that saturates this article, that Julia doesn't actually like women very much?

I would love to hear Julia's ex's side of the story. I'm imagining it like this: she got together with a man, attempted to support the transition, found it difficult to now accept she'd been railroaded into be a "lesbian", Julia started to sleep with other people and good night Vienna...(I have read many such trans widow narratives. It's alarmingly common and the women in these relationships are generally silenced).

So are pre-op FtT also considered potential sexual partners to MtT, given that they are FtT are women (even though they don't identify as women)?

I am so struggling to understand all this. Mainly because it illogical bullshit.

I know this is a naive question/post, as I'm pretty sure how one self-identifies in gender terms isn't totally linked to who one is sexually attracted to, but I do have real trouble with the concept of being a lesbian transwoman. How does that work then?
You start as a man, you fancy women, but you then decide you feel that you are a woman and still fancy women - but why? Is this where the autogynaephilia thing kicks in, or is that too simplistic as well?

Before all this (and I am so grateful to the people who started these threads!) I honestly wasn't aware of lesbian transwomen. Are there also gay transmen then? The only transman I know is married to a woman.

Sorry to be so dim.