This is bullshit. Thread #2

[BeyondSpecialSnowflake]

Following on from...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/a2716008-Seriously-MN-this-is-fucking-bullshit?msgid=63181862#63181862

I think it would be better for violent crimes against TW to be recorded as such as then they can be logged as a hate crime if that is a clear motive. In a way that violence against women by men will never be.

I would also turn that question it's head. If a transwoman assaults another person, should the crime be recorded as being commited by a woman, or by a man, or by a transwoman?

Not jus true logged, prosecuted etc.

Obviously they will have something to say about it

I think it takes a lot of guts to be any kind of activist nowadays. Anyone who is brave enough to stand up and be counted can be in for a rough ride nowadays thanks to social media.

I give them - and feminist activists such as Laura Bates and Caroline Crieda -Peraz full credit for being brave enough.

If a transwoman assaults another person, should the crime be recorded as being commited by a woman, or by a man, or by a transwoman

Thinking about it - I think the motive is all important. Why did they carry out their crime?

It is complicated.

Not just logged! Fucking stupid autocorrect!

In a way that violence against women by men will never be

And should be.

I am in awe of people who are brave enough to stand up.to anonymous Twitter bullies.

In a way that violence against women by men will never be

And without going too off topic - the reaction to the woman activist who 'dared' suggest that catcalling against women be recorded as a hate crime was horrendous. So many awful reactions on line.

And that was just for suggesting catcalling be recorded as a hate crime...

Thinking about it - I think the motive is all important. Why did they carry out their crime?

YY. Which is why IMO the categories need to be kept separate.

Agree 100% ego.

My relative who is currently having some gender issues had a crime committed against them.

It was alongside an assault that happened to me.

The assault was recorded, the threats towards my relative were not because they didn't know how to record it, they didn't think it would go anywhere anyway due to what could be perceived as the perpetrator having justifiable anger, and actually the assault against me was also dropped because the situation was so emotionally charged and they didn't believe that a conviction would come of it.

My point at the start of the thread was that the powers that be need to come up with a clear definition of what constitutes being a woman or a man, then we will all know where to go from there, what our rights are, what we still need to fight for etc. A lot of problems would be solved by them coming up with a clear, legal definition.

I personally think this is the issue that everyone should be pushing for at the moment.

Venus, I apologise.
There have been occasions where posters have been called out for fawning and sycophancy that has been acceptable (eg. Jack Monroe thread), it is quite confusing to see it is ok in some circumstances, but not in others. (being genuine here btw).

Fair enough. Everyone will react differently, but I think most people would consider it a personal attack if they thought it was directed at them. I didn't see the Jack Monroe thread btw, nor do I generally go around calling people fawning or sycophantic. Certainly not other posters on the same thread.

ego if a crime is committed by a TW it should be recorded as a crime by a male or by a TW. It should not be recorded as a woman's crime.

I saw some articles a few days ago whereby a sudden spike in violent crime by women was caused by including TW crimes as women's. And then it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy - why would women need separate prisons, or safe space when women are as violent as men? Except we aren't.

If a MTT commits a crime, it is important that it is NOT recorded as a crime committed by a woman. To do so would be factually incorrect.

One of my bug bears is health stats. The prospect of having to record female cases of prostate cancer, or male cases of ovarian cancer is ludicrous. Whilst such cases will be relatively easy to decode, where diseases affect both men and women, but at differing rates, this will cause unacceptable confusion. I believe it is also in MTT and FTT interests to have illnesses recorded in such a way to capture their trans status. If it turns out that eg decades of hormone treatment causes certain cancers or other illnesses, wouldn't they want to know about it?

Partial x-post with Heriome.

YY - and to have an increase in female rates in violent and sexual crimes, including those committed against children, plays right into the hands of MRA.

YY Oscar. I'm amazed that this is even a debate.

Or with Hermione even....

ElsaAintAsColdAsMe

That sound crap and wrong on so many levels, and both of you have been let down greatly.

Assault is assault.

"it's male violence against someone who the perpetrator sees as a woman."

Or rather, it's male violence against someone who the perpetrator sees as a TW.

Contrary to what you might want to believe, human beings have evolved over millennia to reliably pick up clues from others' bodies, gait, mimics etc, in order to identify who is male and who is female.

I guess one could say that a few rapists are so high, drunk, mad, whatever that they don't know who they are attacking and there might hypothetically be a few TW out there who have started transitioning as small children so have never acquired a male appearance and can 100% pass as women, but those would be exceptions rather than the rule re male violence towards TWs.

Not cluttering the Spartacus thread, but have just seen that MNHQ have deleted and censored even a transperson's own reality to maintain their view of the politically acceptable narrative. Which means they've nailed their colours to the mast. I wish they would own it.

Stand by for the confused deletions, mixed messages and posters trying to work out what the hell is permissible in discussions about breast feeding, periods, birth, pregnancy, infertility, menopause, domestic abuse, sexual harrassment - you know, the whole experience of woman and motherhood - because I really don't see how they are going to avoid it. If their colours are so firmly current political on message orthodoxy there will be no option. The root problem being discussed here on all these threads is that this on message orthodoxy is NOT live and let live, the problem at the heart of it is that is does not permit a middle way.

There are a huge number of trains threads all of a sudden and I'm not sure what has happened.

Can somebody tell me if someone has been banned from MN?

Sorry for derailment, I am just confused as to what is going on.

*If a transwoman assaults another person, should the crime be recorded as being committed by a woman, or by a man, or by a transwoman?
Thinking about it - I think the motive is all important. Why did they carry out their crime? *

Why is the motive important? Why would it be complicated? It might matter for the sentence and the tariff, but it doesn't change who committed the crime.
It not like someone gets to choose wheter they are male to female for the purposes of committing a crime.

For the purposes of statistics it should not matter in the slightest.
It has to be recorded as committed by a transwoman.

Mumsnet deleted threads that had too much "misgendering" going on instead of just deleting individual posts, and also banned at least 2 posters for misgendering, although one is back again (Special).
The most recently deleted thread was about this chap and his awful attitude towards women and impact on LGBT students:
thetab.com/uk/edinburgh/2016/08/23/ada-wells-resigns-eusas-lgbt-officer-25017