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This is bullshit. Thread #2

999 replies

BeyondSpecialSnowflake · 26/08/2016 08:48

Following on from...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/a2716008-Seriously-MN-this-is-fucking-bullshit?msgid=63181862#63181862

OP posts:
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8
venusinscorpio · 27/08/2016 11:25

I think a lot of the people you refer to, special, are actively getting pleasure from being vilely abusive to women, gaslighting us to accept absurdity and shutting us down.

FRETGNIKCUF · 27/08/2016 11:27

What isn't then Larry?
Tell us

Ego147 · 27/08/2016 11:34

itsallgoingtobefine

I should imagine there are some transwomen who feel totally in the wrong body and know that their body can't do things that most women's bodies do naturally - and they find that really hard and difficult to cope with and accept. Having a body that is wrong and having to accept is is difficult for anyone with any condition.

I should also imagine that there are transwomen who don't have such thoughts and are more focussed on appearance.

Then there are those who have no body issues but 'identify' as female.

Speaking to TW in the real world - if you know any - can be interesting - if they want to discuss such personal and complex issues.

CoteDAzur · 27/08/2016 11:35

larry - I don't agree with you on much else, but your thinking on this subject is not far from mine.

" I think gender is based on biology and reinforced socially"

Some of it, yes. Women are physically weaker than men and give birth to the babies, so it is not hard to understand that they have been relegated to the traditional homemaking/child rearing roles while men have been the hunters. With these roles have come vast differences in power and authority, with which gender roles are further reinforced by the powerful class - men are accepted to be not just physically stronger but also more able in whatever they do, even in management positions that require no physical strength. Women are not listened to as much and are raised to be sweet, told not to argue, etc.

So yes, there are biological differences between men and women that are the basis for gender roles, but the whole story woven around those roles such as girls like pink & dressing up being pretty, boys like intellectual stuff etc are still bullshit.

"an operations X hormone treatment repressing a substantial degree of the biological expression of the Y chromosome (the testosterone),... the resulting person was far closer to a woman than a man. "

The resulting person is still a man (= adult human male, where male = of the sex that can make sperm and not eggs) who appears to be closer to a woman than a man.

It is very VERY important to be able to distinguish between what looks like and what is. A male who no longer looks masculine without facial hair and with breasts is still male (i.e. of the sex that can make sperm) and will never be female (i.e. of the sex that can bear young or make eggs).

"And if they want to be considered a woman, what is wrong with that?"

Nothing on an individual basis, but again "considered as" is not the same thing as "is". I have no problem considering my TM friend a man, but we both know that my friend only looks somewhat like a man and is not a man - doesn't have the necessary Y chromosome or the organs, will never have any physical function associated with being male, a fact reminded by yearly smear tests.

On a population level, accepting all TW as women has devastating consequences for half the population, in subjects ranging from safe spaces, medical treatments, sports, statistics, and prisons, to name just a few. All have extensively been explored on these threads so you will all know what I am talking about here.

Ego147 · 27/08/2016 11:36

The same no doubt applies to trans men as well. Remember 25% of trans people are FTM - I think.

FRETGNIKCUF · 27/08/2016 11:36

Ego.

know

You cannot know what cannot be known.

HermioneWeasley · 27/08/2016 11:39

its "trans" is now a really broad term

Most of us grew up with the term "transsexual" - the "born in the wrong body" narrative. Has full surgery. Sympathetic to women. Victimised, woukdnt hurt a fly type narrative.

Now it means "anyone who at that moment in time identifies as a woman". That might include fetishistic cross dressers, people who look like big beardy men, really anyone at all. No requirement for hormones, surgery, anything. Just say "I am a woman" and we should all magical,y accept that's the case.

I think most of us started as trans allies and had total sympathy with transsexuals, and didn't really think about how it might conflict with our beliefs about ladybrain or gender stereotypes.

Many of us now realise that the initial logic was flawed and is now actively damaging women and girls in many, many ways.

Ego147 · 27/08/2016 11:41

"trans" is now a really broad term

venus

I agree totally. It's not the narrative I remember from only a few years ago. It seems too broad now.

StatisticallyChallenged · 27/08/2016 11:46

There is some gendered behaviour which almost certainly has a biological root - talking in absolute generalised terms here, but males as a whole are likely to be stronger and more physically aggressive due to the presence of testosterone. Women are more likely to be nurturing due to hormones, etc etc - but in both cases there's a large and overlapping spectrum.

But what has happened, IMO, is that those differences which do exist due to biology have developed in to gender stereotypes and those stereotypes now serve to limit people. In general, men will be stronger but that doesn't mean that a physically weak man is a woman. In general, women are more predisposed towards nurturing young children, but that doesn't mean that a woman who isn't is a man, nor that a man who works in childcare or a boy who loves dolls is a woman. But many of the other elements of gender are bullshit - my biology does not mean I am more suited to wearing dresses, or make up, or having long hair. It's more often these bullshit elements of gender which are used as identifiers for being the opposite gender.

ScrambledSmegs · 27/08/2016 11:46

Am incredibly behind on this thread, but have just read that article on the DM that Statistically linked to yesterday and Shock. Tashion (the subject of the article) transitioned MtT at 16, joined a dating site and was messaged by and had sex for money with men aged between 30 and 50.

That's just predatory. OK, so Tashion doesn't feel exploited apparently, but I feel sick about it. There's something really vile about people who see a teenager who is at least half their age and think 'I want to pay that person for sex'.

CoteDAzur · 27/08/2016 11:46

Pig - re "Haven't caught up with the whole thread yet, but I'm finding it uncomfortable reading... seeing the fawning over trans women who post acceptable opinions is cringey and embarrassing to say the least."

Can we help free you in some way, assuming that you are being forced to read this thread? Hmm

We are not "fawning over" Miranda and Helen, and certainly not because they have "acceptable opinions". You may not be aware of this, but Miranda is a brave and admirable person who has continued to speak her mind clearly and respectfully against vicious attacks by TAs. Yes, I would rather listen to Miranda than most other TW because she is rational, articulate, civil, and ready to back up what she says with science and research. I have learned a lot from Miranda.

I have not learned anything at all from TW who are all about "Boo hoo, how I have suffered. Nobody wants me in RL. I'm so unhappy." except that they need professional help. And I have learned nothing at all from TW who call others names and tell them to die in a fire except that they are violent assholes.

Ego147 · 27/08/2016 11:47

in subjects ranging from safe spaces, medical treatments, sports, statistics, and prisons, to name just a few

On statistics - if a transwoman is a victim of a crime such as sexual assault because she is taken to be a woman, should that be reported as a crime against a woman or as a crime against a transwoman?

venusinscorpio · 27/08/2016 11:49

Totally agree Hermione. Your post perfectly sums up my view on it.

CoteDAzur · 27/08/2016 11:50

"if a transwoman is a victim of a crime such as sexual assault because she is taken to be a woman, should that be reported as a crime against a woman or as a crime against a transwoman?"

Any statistics involving TW should be logged under TW, not Women. Simply because TW are TW and Women are Women. I don't see why that is even a question.

Ego147 · 27/08/2016 11:52

I don't see why that is even a question

Because it's male violence against someone who the perpetrator sees as a woman.

venusinscorpio · 27/08/2016 11:52

Otherwise statistics are meaningless. I do find it worrying that it is even an option.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 27/08/2016 11:54

if a transwoman is a victim of a crime such as sexual assault because she is taken to be a woman, should that be reported as a crime against a woman or as a crime against a transwoman?

IMO it should be recorded as a crime against a transwoman. I think while there is some crossover between crimes against women and transwomen the motives and the outcomes may be different, I think it is important that transwomen are recognised as having their own unique needs/issues - not just lumped in with men or women.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 27/08/2016 11:55

For example surely it is important to know if transwomen are more likely to be assaulted than women.

larrygrylls · 27/08/2016 11:55

Statistically,

I agree with your post.

Ego147 · 27/08/2016 11:58

For example surely it is important to know if transwomen are more likely to be assaulted than women

I suppose that ultimately it comes down to male violence. The issue facing women and trans women on a daily basis.

venusinscorpio · 27/08/2016 11:59

How would we know whether they really and truly saw the trans woman as a woman? It's a fairly unlikely scenario that we would definitely be in possession of that knowledge. If someone saw a (non trans) feminine looking man walking down the street from behind, was a misogynist and wanted to attack a woman, thought mistakenly that the guy was a woman and then hit him over the head, should that crime also be added as a crime against a woman?

Ego147 · 27/08/2016 11:59

And facing trans men as well - I hate to imagine the issues they go through. Male violence affects them as well.

PigPigTrotters · 27/08/2016 12:00

Cote, at the time of posting I hadn't read every page. I have now caught up with the few I hadn't read.

I found Miranda's and Helen's posts interesting and informative. I have followed Miranda to learn more and agree with you, she is rational, articulate and civil.
It was the responses I found uncomfortable. That coupled with the reddit thread has left a nasty taste.
If I've found that, I'm sure others have too. Not sure why it's a problem that I've pointed this out.

Ego147 · 27/08/2016 12:01

should that crime also be added as a crime against a woman

It should probably be recorded as yet another case of everyday male violence.

You could argue the same for a bloke attacking a woman who a bloke mistook for a man. Which I am sure happens occasionally.

Everyday male violence

venusinscorpio · 27/08/2016 12:03

It's not a problem, but it's a bit judgemental to call people "fawning" And "sycophantic". Obviously they will have something to say about it.

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