This is bullshit. Thread #2

[BeyondSpecialSnowflake]

Following on from...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/a2716008-Seriously-MN-this-is-fucking-bullshit?msgid=63181862#63181862

I disagree that a man can 'live like a woman', other than by collapsing into crude gender stereotypes (and I think the vast majority of us on this thread have long since moved past accepted that this is 'living like a woman').

Other than by virtue of the biological processed my body goes through, by virtue of my BEING a woman, I do not see how at all I 'live as a woman'.

And that is part of it - no one, not TA or even sane TW, seems able to offer an explanation of what 'living as a woman' is meaningful.

Mother is a role. Being a woman isn't.

What Saucery said.

Motherhood is something that most (not all) women do.

I've never given birth. I'm not a mother. But I'm a woman.

I've dealt with the physical issues around my potential to give birth for 40+ years. Menstruation, perimenopause, 35 years of (mostly) being responsible for contraception.

(This post will likely be deleted because apparently it's transphobic to even mention the fact that I bleed approximately every 30 days. Not allowed to discuss a physical function that has happened every month, often causing me pain and distress, for more than 40 years. Shut up women, our issues are more important than yours! )

Anyway, my point is that giving birth isn't what makes a woman a woman. I fully understand and respect that many women have felt their womanhood most strongly during pregnancy and chiidbirth, but please let's not make those of us who haven't given birth somehow less of a woman because of it.

that was an epic cross post !

Haven't caught up with the whole thread yet, but I'm finding it uncomfortable reading tbh.
there are things about the trans agenda that I don't agree with, certainly, but seeing the fawning over trans women who post acceptable opinions is cringey and embarrassing to say the least.

I've followed trans threads for a while, but not really posted, but I don't understand the vitriol aimed at Ego.

My "problem" with trans was originally the allowance for trans women to compete alongside women in the Olympics, despite biological advantage, followed by the TA view that trans women are women, female penis, cotton ceiling etc, which I cannot logically accept. I also struggle with the recent news about Ada Wells, and the fact that some TRAs appear to be men stirring up a load of shit for shit's sake.
However, if someone desires to live as a woman and be referred to as she, I generally have no issue, same as if someone decides they are a cat, if they are not hurting anyone, fine.
Looking back, I did have gender issues as a child, probably related to ASD, and I don't agree with early intervention into transitioning children, they should IMO be supported until the are adults so they can make their decision knowing fully what they would go through and any potential problems.

I haven't looked at the reddit thread, but if it has become a witch hunt against a particular MNer, it says far more about those people than it does about Ego.

Thank you everyone, I was speaking to the adoptive mother of a transgender woman and so didn't really feel qualified to comment.

I guess Mother is a role. Being a woman isn't. sums up my thoughts on it nicely.

Yes. Motherhood is something you bloody just do It's why no one feels the same about the word 'father.' The amount of your life taken up by your children just isn't the same in current society.

How much would change do you reckon would happen if mother's were given a helpful link to certain special snowflake witter accounts that seemingly exist to abuse women?

I suspect a lot of them would be very embarrassed! especially if there trans child is claiming all sorts of outrageous lies about us 'murderous TERFs.' well sure, your mum will be on your side about that.

If you explain that this woman is murderous by being a lesbian who is not attracted to, I think she''ll have a slightly different opinion and not, because, she ever threatened to harm you in anyway, or even knew you exist

"an explanation of what 'living as a woman' is"

It means dressing up as a woman, not demanding a pay cut and giving oneself monthly stomach aches - putting on women's clothes such as dresses, wearing heels, carrying a purse, going out in makeup. I think the idea is to make sure they really are committed to the TW life before going down the road of HRT which has very serious long-term risks.

it says far more about those people than it does about Ego.

Agreed. Which is why none of us are there. They make us uncomfortable.

I can see both sides of this.

A man can never wholly become a woman, he cannot dispose of the Y chromosome or magic up functioning organs.

However, I disagree that gender is wholly a social construct (regardless of Cordelia Fine with whom many neurologists still disagree). I think gender is based on biology and reinforced socially. Of course, it is a spectrum with many women being more like traditional men and vice versa. Good for them and I respect anyone however they choose to live as long as it is respectful of others.

However, with an operations X hormone treatment repressing a substantial degree of the biological expression of the Y chromosome (the testosterone), one could make a case that the resulting person was far closer to a woman than a man. And if they want to be considered a woman, what is wrong with that?

Piss takers trying to force women to behave certain ways or crash safe spaces are another matter altogether. They should not be accepted.

The posters on reddit (mumsnet refugees?) have clearly come from mumsnet, so it's very likely that there is a crossover of posters. I'm not sure you can confidently say none of us are there, particularly as no-one is likely to admit to being there now.

That's not really fair Pigpig. People are supportive of Miranda and Helen as they understand where women are coming from and our concerns and are very clear that they see a difference between trans women and women and they have had awful abuse from the trans lobby for saying this. Most people here would like genuine trans people with gender dysphoria to be able to live their lives and find happiness and acceptance, just not by trampling over women and their rights to do so. The vocal misogynist transactivists and their allies are making it much much harder for the majority of trans people to do this.

Trotters some of the posters on Reddit have come from MN but it's quite clear that not all of them have.

What is living as a woman?

Does a DIY crazed mechanic footie fan who wears nothing but trousers and loves bitter lesbian live as a woman?

Exactly, Venus.

Larry

Which bits of gender do you think are "natural"?

A lot of people lurk on threads on mumsnet, it's a big site, and known for having a lot of gender critical posters and discussions. We don't know who people are on other sites unless they tell us.

I still have the Reddit page open and joined to go on that thread. I am unable to find my way around the site, however so will most likely not stay unless I have time to unpick the process and make it work for me.
I have no in depth comment to make on what has been said about individual posters on there as it's a side issue to me. Shit slung both ways as far as I am concerned.

I suppose you're right, I'll say I'm not there.

There seems to be an awful lot of hierarchies within the trans community, with pretty transwomen being 'the best.' I find this obsession with passing very uncomfortable to read, because, well it's not really true is it? No one being overtly hurtful or rude doesn't mean no one noticed, it just means people are politer.

By trans ideology, transwomen who look like a big hairy trucker should surely be as accepted as feminine looking men too? Why is it all about appearance?

It makes me feel guilty in a weird way, because I find transwomen extremely obvious. Laverne Cox, for example is physically very pretty person, but (to my eyes) very much obviously not 'born a woman.'

Venus, I do understand that, but a lot of the posts come across as very sycophantic, which makes me very uncomfortable and distracts from what is being said.

Larry

But, gendered roles, particularly for women, vary according to time and place - they are culturally specific. So how can this be natural?

My gendered role in the UK includes the ability to drive (although to have the piss taken out of my abilities by certain men). My gendered role in Saudi Arabia would include being prohibited from driving. My gendered role in the UK now includes the ability to vote. Not that long ago it would have included being prohibited from voting. How can these contradictory gendered roles stem from nature?

My gendered role in certain countries and cultures would be to have to undergo FGM, the risk of being married off as a child, and the risk of being murdered due to infringes on my male relatives 'honour'. In the culture I am part of in the UK, I am not subject to these. Again, how can these all stem from nature?

The only way I can see that they could be is if women really are deficient in relation to men and our sexuality really is dangerous and really does need to be reined in, and the differences between different cultures' expressions of gender roles for women are because we just haven't yet all agreed on the right way to express and allow for that deficiency and the threat that women's sexuality and biology poses. Really??? I mean, really??????

I was just gratefully not to gaslighted about my experiences of transwomen from other transwomen in denial about what their movement is doing. Us shutting up would make certain people feel better, as they must know imposing their wishes on us is very cruel, deep down.

I'm getting really confused now - so do some/all transwomen not actually want to be a woman, but rather to look like a woman?

Do transwomen wish they could menstruate and bear children, or is it purely about breasts and vaginas?

Oscar,

I don't believe in gendered roles save maybe in menial jobs, but even then if a woman can do it, she should be allowed to.

That is not the same as saying that all gendered behaviour is socially habituated.