This is bullshit. Thread #2

[BeyondSpecialSnowflake]

Following on from...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/a2716008-Seriously-MN-this-is-fucking-bullshit?msgid=63181862#63181862

But - there are people who do have actual body issues. What they see in the mirror and how their body 'feels' does not match up with what their body is. HRT and surgery resolves such issues.

But does it though? HRT and surgery cannot turn a man into a woman. It can turn a man into a transwoman, but not a woman. He will not thereby become she. Is this where so much of the anger from the more TA inclined TW comes from? Anger that despite painful, expensive (especially if in the USA) and time-consuming surgery and treatment, they are still not women? And that many, especially those who transition later and had a more typically masculine appearance, just will not 'pass' and never will 'pass'? Is this why the anger has to be externalised and projected outwards in such an aggressive and all consuming way? Because to recognise that it is that person's issue, and not women's/feminists'/society's issue would cause a psychological breakdown?

I came across this yesterday, an account by a transwoman of what it is like to live with a surgically created 'vagina':

sports.yahoo.com/news/feel-vagina-trans-woman-050500404.html

I find this distressing reading and pretty heartbreaking to be honest.

As an aside to ego, I clicked on the reddit page, but found the format far too exhausting to read. I am horrified at what others have said they have read. Revolting.

Oscar that's a superb post.

Reposted from t'other thread as I posted in the wrong place - joys of mn'ing on a phone lol!

I don't think, in reality, that we really know enough about the root cause of trans identities and it concerns me that we willingly tackle it with such invasive surgery without that understanding.

There are a lot of different narratives around how trans people feel. In the earlier days this tended to centre around the born in the wrong body narrative which I will admit doesn't make sense to me personally because I don't believe in souls or spirits so I don't think you exist independent of your body. But I do accept that there are individuals who feel that way but I feel like it probably comes from a similar place to body dysmorphia type issues : yet, we don't tell people who believe they have an extra limb that they're right and remove it surgically, nor do we agree with anorexic people that they are fat and perform liposuction or gastric bypasses on them. I hope one day that we do find the root cause of this, I suspect it will be found to be an imbalance in the brain of some variety rather like many mental health conditions.

But there are also a lot of other issues now sitting under the trans umbrella, people who don't really fit the wrong body narrative. That includes people struggling with their sexuality, people who don't identify with the expectations of gender and so feel they must be trans, autogynephalic men, people who would previously have been cross dressers, and a number of attention seekers and misogynistic men who probably don't have identity issues at all.

Trying to find a single approach which is appropriate to all of these groups is a big part of the problem. Many people think only of the first when they think of trans issues and so understandably feel great sympathy and don't feel threatened, but aren't aware of the other groups which range from utterly harmless and gender stereotype challenging through to downright threatening to women.

Special - Autogynephilia is fascinating. I would recommend lurking on Reddit's AskTransgender board (subReddit) to see it in action. Quite often, people come on there, asking stuff like "I like to masturbate when wearing a dress & looking at myself in a mirror. Is this normal?". Many will answer "Yes, totally normal. You are just being a girl, girls do it all the time" etc.

That sub is what is called a "circlejerk" on Reddit (posters sitting in a tight circle, jerking each other off) so not a good place for debate. But it's good for understanding their viewpoint.

GenderCritical sub is another circlejerk, unfortunately, which is why I have never posted there (incl. recent MN Refugees thread) despite being a Redditor for many years.

That was so, unbelievably sad. that poor person

Circlejerk seems apt. yeah, we call put on our laydee clothes and wank in front of the mirror...I'm totally going to nosy on over!

I'm still reading about autogynpehila. it's odd seeing people post exactly what the scientists say but somehow using this as an explanation of why the science is wrong [confusing] It's extremely interesting, Kay Brown has answered frankly, all my questions. I do not have questions about transwomen now, as a class.

I will be polite to people's identities, until in encroaches on my life. Exactly like religion! I am frankly, not interested in what men do to do each other and why, other than in a sciencey way. I want to explore female sexuality.

That was so, unbelievably sad. that poor person

Way before you have surgery, you should be made aware of what can and cannot happen and what the new vagina can and can't do. There is a lot of counselling and discussion with psychologists (at least in the NHS) so you should go in fully informed and be aware of 'its limitations'.

The internet is full of Reddit type sites. Mn is actually incredibly civilsed and restrained in comparison.

Yes but that does not change that poor person's problems. I cannot believe this person expected such a sensitive thing as a vulva to sort of magic itself there. the doctor should never have allowed the surgery.

Then again, there seems to be a lot of smiling and nodding to get what they want, if the transwomen's life experiences I've been about are true (and, I have no reason to assume they are lying, of course)

Not knowing why your genitals lubricate seems like you have an infection to me. Growing hair on the inside? If this makes people happy, I spose I cannot judge.

GenderCritical is a harsh place (I lurk but don't post). Unfortunately shutting down debate elsewhere (like on here/the Guardian/twitter etc) has two effects. First it forces people to access GenderCritical as really the only place to discuss this stuff anonymously. Second it pushes the really transphobic people in with people with genuine concerns which airs the transphobia more and normalises it. (Some of the comments made about ego and her surgery on that thread being examples of what I mean by transphobia. Disgusting).
Add on top of that that many people are angry about the abuse they have had for asking questions about transgender ism or stating facts such as the differences between a woman and a trans woman, it's not surprising Gendercritical is how it is.
That's why it is so important to keep this debate on MN. Because we do get both sides here.

I agree with Bambambini. That's why it's so important for this discussion to continue freely here, as long as it is respectful of individual posters. That should not mean that we have to call a male rapist or raving misogynist she though.

Can I ask views on something I was discussing recently?

It makes me feel uncomfortable but I can't articulate why.

I do not mean to cause offence, I'm just repeating a view of someone I was talking to to see what opinions are.

A man can live as a woman, dress like a woman, act like a woman, have surgery and look like a woman and get a legal document to say that he is a woman but never be accepted as one because of life experiences etc.

A woman who can't have children can foster a child, love the child, act like a parent to that child and eventually get a document to prove that she is that child's mother despite never having been pregnant and all the experiences that involves yet she is still accepted as a mother.

Now I admit I didn't know what to say and said I would think about my views on that and am still struggling.

There was a little more to it than that but that's the basics of it.

Can anyone help me articulate why it makes me feel uncomfortable?

CoteDAzur that's my impression of Reddit in general, do you know of any good places for discussion there?

I cannot believe this person expected such a sensitive thing as a vulva to sort of magic itself there. the doctor should never have allowed the surgery

It would be interesting to know what discussions and expectations were discussed before surgery. I know some people get 'blues' because they have high expectations of surgery which can fail to live up to expectations.

Being fully informed and having that 'information' tested is important - as it must be for any major surgery. I suspect that some people pay the money for private surgery (in Thailand for example) and go in with high expectations.

As for hair - hair should be removed prior to surgery.

My 3yo DD just walked in on DH in the shower, I heard the following conversation:
DD : That's your penis, isn't it?
DH : Yes, it is.
DD : Because you're a boy. Mummy and DD2 and me have a vagina because we're girls.

How have we lost this simplistic thinking?

I think it comes down to genetics Elsa

Males have the XY genes. You can't change that. So no amount of surgery can make your genes XX(female)

A woman who adopts is always a woman. And then it's just natural to attach mother because that child is now hers and isn't going anywhere

I could be wrong but that's how I look at it

Yeah, MN is very conservative. i find all this 'omg I'm so rebellious for scorning netmums' shit rather amusingly cute, it its own way.

But she's not the child's biological mother, yet as she has parental responsibility, for all intents and purposes she is. Also if the biological mother through whatever circumstances is not able to look after the child, who else is going to? There is a need for the child to be cared for in a family environment. I'm sorry I don't think it's a valid analogy at all. There is another person involved who likely benefits from the woman being treated as a real mother. With the trans woman it's an individual need to transition.

Most adoptive mothers do make it clear that they are adoptive mothers and not birth mothers

Least the ones I know have

On the pronouns issue, my view is that a trans person who is convicted of a crime which can only be committed by a man or which is dictated by male attributes, i.e. mainly rape and similar sexual offences, should expect to be described as "he". That would also include advocating rape. I think there is also a case for using that for offences of violence which require the type of strength that is provided by male hormones.

However, for the majority of trans people who are simply going about living their lives, I think the pronoun that they want to be used should be used - whether you're talking to them or about them. I was really quite concerned that someone said they would refer to Jan Morris as he and describe her as a man, despite the fact that she has been living as a woman longer than she lived as a man. It's nasty and it's totally unnecessary.

MNHQ did not ban me for calling Ada horrible.

Coming to this late, but my understanding is that no-one has suggested Special was banned for calling Ada horrible. I think the reference was to calling her a horrible man.

MNHQ did not warn me and I continued, please don't make up lies that imply I'm an arsehole.

They didn't specifically warn you, Special, they put a general warning about misgendering on the thread, and you continued after that. They did say that it was because they wanted the thread to continue.

"A man can live as a woman, dress like a woman, act like a woman, have surgery and look like a woman and get a legal document to say that he is a woman but never be accepted as one because of life experiences etc."

No, not because of life experiences. Their Y-chromosomes makes them male and that doesn't change despite surgery and artificial hormones that plump their faces & make them grow breasts. Many of those changes will go back to male baseline if/when those hormones are suddenly unavailable, because the person remains (and will always be) male.

And as any fictionary will tell you, adult human males = men. Not women.

Btw legal documents are there to say that one will be treated as a woman. Laws don't pass judgement on biological reality. Another example is that our laws treat people under the age of 16 as children. They don't mean to say that fully grown adult-size teenagers with full reproductive function are in fact biologically children. We all know they are not.

I think, Elsa, it's because being pregnant is a relatively short period and a relatively small part of motherhood. It's a means to an end, effectively.

Decades of growing up as a man, being socialised as a man, male privilege and male biology are a much bigger part. Take a late transitioning person - say Caitlin Jenner ( who I believe hasn't had bottom surgery yet but imagine they have). They've lived for 60+ years as a male, fathered children, experienced life for decades as a man. Surgery and a feminised appearance isn't going to change that, they've missed out on for more than a woman who hasn't given birth, comparatively.

But I also think it depends on how you use the word. Mother is generally used to encompass adoptive parents but when a distinction needs to be made then you don't hear adoptive mothers demanding that they be called mothers, and women who have given birth must be called "cis mothers" , they accept that there is a difference.

But what if it grows back? Or are you talking about laser removal?

I guess I just sorta assumed laser hair removal would be logical?

If it was done in a country like Thailand, where people get cheap boob jobs etc, that's almost not even a trans/women/ thing, that's simply not safe.

I however, have admiration for this person asking why is no one allowed to talk about their discomforts? That person does not have the same medical problems as me, as someone with stage IV Endometriosis. But that person should not be fearful to recieve medical care, or uncomfortable about talking about how, y'know, different sex might without a penis these are trans issues that deserve more awareness and discussing, to solve them.
In fact, I guess the fact I asked largely no questions was because I had assumed this was core stuff. It was only in the past week, when I realised how wrong I was, I realised why my issues are so deeply entwined, with example, your own Ego Understanding why dissolves a huge amount of the 'leave me alone' sort of frustration and instant push away instincts, that, I personally have felt.

Such a rollarcoaster of emotions! Phew >wipes row< You're much braver than I, living in a patriarchy is hard enough.