This is bullshit. Thread #2

[BeyondSpecialSnowflake]

Following on from...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/a2716008-Seriously-MN-this-is-fucking-bullshit?msgid=63181862#63181862

I don't think that autogynephilia is recognised in DSM so for now I'l choose to not use the term. l will say that following my own 'trans peak' about a year ago, I started to do some research online.
There are a remarkable amount of men who say how aroused they are when they're 'dressed' and that they feel the need to transition to enhance their arousal long term.
They express their experience purely in sexual terms. Sounds like autogynephilia to me, but I said I woudn't use that term

I meant to say *I did not know transwomen were being fed such outrageous lies, I thought it was just plain ole misogyny. It actually makes a rather enormous difference to me that doctors collude in this crap, let alone shrinks. I always knew there was a reason I hate my psychiatrist, but not my psychologist

I do not fucking appreciate medical professionals making everything worse for everyone, everywhere!

Thanks for that paper miranda.

The whole subject of autogynephilia is woefully misunderstood. Part of the problem is that transgender activists don't want anyone to hear about it. They all know what they are, every one of them.

This two-part interview with Michael Bailey is, in spite of the hosting site, enlightening.

Part One
Part Two

Thanks for the link to the paper Miranda I have just quickly skimmed it, but will read it properly when I am less tired

FoxtonFoxFace
The DSM is a product of politics as much as medicine.

This two-part interview with Michael Bailey is, in spite of the hosting site, enlightening.

That was much easier to read !

And interestingly autogynephilia/ those links don't discuss FtM at all is this because FtM is much rarer, or much less interesting, or just completely different?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine
Good question, the majority of FTM/FTT I've encountered were previously lesbian. I'm speaking with a number of heterosexual women who transitioned but they are a minority. Most males who transition are autogynephilic; autogynephilia is arguably a sexual orientation. So there's a connection - both may be sexual orientations amd both confound societies gender expectations. The problem with autogynephilia is that the sexual orientation is directed inwards to the self, rather than another person. Relationships with autogynephiliacs can therefore be a hard road.

I'd add that most autogynephilic males (for only males are autogynephilic) do not ask for this orientation, and it can cause discomfort, distress and dysphoria. The key problem is that usually the autogynephilia goes unacknowledged.

I've thought about being the man whilst wanking growing up. At what point does it become less of a exploring thing, and more like what article describes? Is there some sort of 'line?'

SASR
The Anne Lawrence paper may help you with this.

Reading that interview, it's very hard not find it extremely narcissistic. Like, I'm in love with my idea of myself as a woman?

But it also makes an enormous amount of sense. Why don't TRAs want to discuss something that explored, could obviously make their lives better?

I guess the second comment is my confusion.

Sorry, I'm reading multiple things at once.

I agree with this, though 'Autogynephilia is nothing to be ashamed of' MNHQ should not make it shameful by banning posts about it.

SpecialAgentSpartacusRoars
It is my view the transgender movement should own this topic and widen discourse, it helps everyone. Unfortunately they won't, even though much of the community appears tied up in BDSM they collectively seem unable to take ownership of their orientation. They do not therefore control the discussion and debate around this, relying on silencing and censorship instead.

Yes but - why? Why is it ignored?

I do not particularly like having been labelled Borderline after years of ahming and ahhing. I think it is largely, a junk diagnosis. (previously I have been 'diagnosed' with everything from depression to bipolar, so it's sort of hard for me to take the labels seriously when they keep changing their minds!) I seek help for it because, well, I enjoy feeling better about my life? It'snot a perfect solution, but is that not sort of similar?

I hope anyone who goes through that is very happy and feels much better about themselves! Like my tattoos, I know some people think they're the worst thing ever, but they make me very happy, I love them

It was fine. My surgery was absolutely fine - as I said in my post. It does solve many people's issues.

But I honestly don't think people really want to discuss that - except to discuss auto gynaophilia.

No one really wants to discuss why someone would go through transition and all the shit that comes with it along the way. No one has asked WHY someone would do that - except in the area of auto gynaophilia.

But just as long as you've got a TW telling you what you want to hear and confirm your biases, then that's fine. You hear what you want to hear.

Does anyone have any idea why someone would go through all that stuff?

Does anyone think that there might just be something going on inside the brain?

Unfortunately they won't, even though much of the community appears tied up in BDSM they collectively seem unable to take ownership of their orientation

Really. Are you talking about the community who transition with HRT and surgery or those who do fuck all about it apart from wearing 'women's clothes' and saying they are female.

It was fine. My surgery was absolutely fine - as I said in my post. It does solve many people's issues.

Good! If this makes people feel better, their body, their choice. Not my place to care or ask questions, is it? it does not effect me. Like I said, my tattoos make me happy. Quite a few people are very 'oh, you've fucked up your body' disapproving. So what? I'm happy and I don't care.

I'd never even heard of autogynophelia until yesterday.

I find it very interesting. And I really appreciate Helen's kind, helpful PMs.

Saying someone has 'fucked up their body' because of a tattoo is totally different from someone saying the same about gender reassignment surgery.

One is ink on skin, the other is life changing, major surgery. You cannot compare the two. It is also not mutilation as someone mentioned up thread.

I'm just an ankle biter here but I wonder why Helen's opinion matters more than Ego's? They are both transwomen but Helen is encouraged and Ego is accused of derailing.

If people just want an echo chamber then why post on Mumsnet? This isn't 4Chan and I hope it never becomes that.

This isn't what Mumsnet is about, we support each other here. We don't go off onto other forums like Reddit and subject individual posters to abuse.

We also don't chase those people who are trying to defend themselves off of threads by accusing them of derailing. If that Reddit thread had been started about any of you on a transactivist subreddit there would be outrage. Anyone linking it would be reported.

The fact that it was celebrated as safe space to talk about these things is scary. Is that what people are hoping MN will become?

I hope not.

I didn't say Helen was more valid than Ego. Since I do not know either of them, that would be ridiculous. GRS is a personal choice, and it's obviously got nothing to do with my life as a woman.

I found the disablist stuff on the reddit thread upsetting to me. So I don't post there, I post here.

Everyone can believe what they want, what they cannot do is force agreement. That goes for everyone, including stuff that makes others uncomfortable.

I take this stance as similar to a religious sort of thing: Believe in your God, but you cannot make me believe in your God.

Oh my. Don't open any obvious TRA clickbait unless you want to see very gory images of dead people.

I told you they'd 'boycott' us by coming here and scaring people.

Kay Brown has written some really interesting articles.

I didn't mean my whole post to be directed at you, Special. I'm sorry if it seemed that way. (no sarcasm intended, by the way)

I suppose I wish more people came along and said 'We don't agree with Ego but disagree with what is being said on the reddit thread' rather than the derailing comments Ego received. After all the links were posted here.

Every single one of us would come here and voice our disgust after reading such horrible things posted about us.

It may not be a personal attack by MN guidelines but it was/is a personal attack.

When I suggest Helen's opinions appear more valid it's only because Helen is allowed to talk another TW is accused of derailing for the same thing only differing opinions.

Again if people want an echo chamber MN is probably not for them.

^

allowed to talk yet another TW is accused