This is bullshit. Thread #2

[BeyondSpecialSnowflake]

Following on from...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/a2716008-Seriously-MN-this-is-fucking-bullshit?msgid=63181862#63181862

I'd agree OlennasWimple. A person with a penis is a man, but we do need a different word for those who have chosen to undergo significant physical transformation and I think that, actually, transwoman (and transman) should maybe be some sort of reserved (legally) term which applies only to those who have got to a certain level of transition. But I don't think the right word for someone who has transitioned, in situations where the definition matters, is woman.

*Transwomen definitely exist.

Men with penises, however, are men. Not transwomen.*

This x 1000

Bold hates me. Fuck bold.

I'm against bold.

Italics understand. Italics are better at bold.

adjustable but for misogynists like Ada/Nate, it's part of their tactic to appropriate womanhood (and in his case, lesbianism). It's wholly wrapped up in the issue to be able to state the fact that Ada is a man and is not, cannot be, a lesbian.

If you accept that Ada is a woman, then why shouldn't lesbians find them an acceptable sexual partner.

Starting with a lie is helping nobody.

And I understand that the law says you can change sex, but 1) the law is wrong, biologically you can't change sex, and 2) the law is confused because under the Equality Act women can still have women only space, excluding those with GRCS. And rightly so

the law is confused because under the Equality Act women can still have women only space, excluding those with GRCS. And rightly so

Really?!

Bye, bye transwomen at the pool!

One of the cons of a poor, immigrant area. These people don't know their rights!

If I wasn't so morally opposed to the Daily Mail, I'd contact them. But I am 100% this will end up on there!!

Starting with a lie is helping nobody.

Agreed. I know 'of' at least one transwoman who got a huge and unhappy shock when they left university and entered reality. I often wondered what happened to this person.

If I were Helen, I'd be very worried about the hugely self destructive nature of 'my people.' Similar to how I pity self hating lesbians who agree with male lesbians.

I think, this is why no lesbian or bisexual women I know are really angry about the sexuality side of abusive TRAs. It's hugely unpleasant, but it will simply never be reality. Ever. Selling to transwomen that it will seems rather cruel, tbh.

The issues facing women, as a class, from transwomen are a reality. hence genuine anger and distress on my part.

OlennasWimple

We do need terminology for someone who has gone through SRS, but I think it should usually only apply to someone who has taken - or is in the process of taking - that step.

I think part of the difficulty with this is that the law doesn't distinguish between sex and gender, whereas most people around here seem to. (I think they're both social constructs but I don't expect people to agree with me.)

Hermione
I don't think lesbians should find them acceptable as a sexual partner. I don't think lesbians should find me acceptable as a sexual partner either, unless they're attracted to me. I think every lesbian should have only the sexual partners she wants to have. If (when) Ada or Nate call lesbians transphobic for rejecting them sexually, they're being abusive arseholes.

I don't think lesbians should find them acceptable as a sexual partner. I don't think lesbians should find me acceptable as a sexual partner either, unless they're attracted to me. I think every lesbian should have only the sexual partners she wants to have. If (when) Ada or Nate call lesbians transphobic for rejecting them sexually, they're being abusive arseholes.

I agree, every lesbian and bisexual I know agrees. Which is why helen's blog really made me think.

If a man goes to a medical professional and says he wants to 'convert' to lesbianism, surely a Dr should say that lesbians won't date or have sex with you? If medical professionals are selling a lie, that's cruel.

Though, at some point, there really should be an element of common sense

But if TW are women, why wouldn't they, at least theoretically, be acceptable sexual partners for lesbians?

The fact that you understand that shows you know TW aren't women. And if they aren't, why do we have to say they are and share intimate, sex segregated, space?

It's either biology OR identity - it can't be both

Men with penises, however, are men. Not transwomen.

May I offer an alternative perspective? Doesn't this view put more pressure on transwomen to mutate a healthy body rather than come to terms with the difference between sex and gender. Isn't it better to seek ways of coping with dysphoria without having to go through that physical trauma?

*mutilate

If a man goes to a medical professional and says he wants to 'convert' to lesbianism, surely a Dr should say that lesbians won't date or have sex with you? If medical professionals are selling a lie, that's cruel.

Yes, it would be useful if men intending to transition were given a realistic idea of the possibility that they might never have sex again. I suppose those who don't go through a transition process wouldn't get this advice.

I would far prefer that nobody felt the need to make such drastic changes and that they could learn to live as they want. But given where we are at the moment and that we do have people who have undergone such dramatic physical transformations and that we don't seem to be stopping it I think as an interim measure it would be good to have a way to differentiate. Not least because many (most?) people aren't aware of the range of identities which are currently sitting under the trans umbrella, and some clarity might help to highlight these issues.

I'm not disagreeing with you btw

But if TW are women, why wouldn't they, at least theoretically, be acceptable sexual partners for lesbians?

The fact that you understand that shows you know TW aren't women.

No, it shows that I understand that most lesbians do not want to have sex with women who are trans. Which I think is perfectly acceptable for each individual lesbian.

I used to totally agree with you Helen.But at some point I have to choose to make some sort of distinction to protect myself and my sisters.

Sadly, I think there will be a generation (two, if you count my DC's generation) of trans and female collateral damage, before your (and my) views are taken seriously as the proper option.

Also, if someone wants to mutilate their body, that's their choice. I don't really feel I have a right -past childhood - to actually object to it on moral grounds. I feel really sorry for them, but if at age forty they still want it from age toddler as some claim they have, then you should do what is right for you.

I hope by then we have a cure for trans - i think the 'cure' will be social acceptance of feminine men, which seems a sad way off.

I ask from a personal perspective. I'm booked to have surgery in November. I was absolutely certain about it until recently. I've finally started to accept that my desire to remove my penis is psychological. To me it's a physical representation of masculinity. I despise masculinity and everything about it. Embracing a feminist view of gender has helped me to come to terms with being male and reconciling that with being trans. If I'm going to chop it off, it needs to be because I absolutely need to for myself, not because I feel pressured to conform. I'm not emotionally attached to my penis. This is a big distinction from those who are attracted to women and want to keep their penises for sexual reasons.

Oh I don't know anymore. It's all such a mess. Sorry if this is oversharing.

Helen

Thanks for sharing. It can't be easy. I hope you find a way through it all to a decision that works for you.

Helen, huge, huge hugs. I can't even imagine.

I think, the most important thing is if you have no attachment to it, ie wouldn't miss it: Would you be happier sexually, without it? Would this make life better for you? Stuff everyone else's view on gender, if it will fulfil you sexually, you've wanted to your whole life, then in our current world it may be right for you.

I guess I'm saying: Cold feet, or genuinely going to miss it? One warrants the opposite advice from the other. I honestly think your gut reaction will tell you the truth.

My mum always said gut reactions were 'your personal truth.'

My mum is wrong about pretty much everything, but she's right about that. Like that game where people ask you random questions, you have to answer based on your gut?

Sorry this thread ain't about me.

As you were.

helen

As much as a woman can, I think I understand about not wanting to associate with toxic masculinity. But being male isn't essentially toxic, wrong or anti women. I think it's really important that men can show lots of ways of being great men.

I see my son being distressed each time he finds out something awful men have done, and puzzling about why his sex treats women so badly when he loves them so much. It hurts to see his hurt. I've told him all he can do is use his position to stand up for women.

I hope you find what works for you.

Good luck with whatever you decide, Helen

It's totally your decision, Helen. Just be you. It's very sad you would feel pressure either way.