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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

TransAgenda BullShit: The I am Spartacus Thread

1000 replies

OscarDeLaYenta · 25/08/2016 19:17

Post deleted by MNHQ as it broke our Talk Guidelines

OP posts:
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7
CoteDAzur · 26/08/2016 11:24

"I'm pretty sure Trashbox is a woman, and the cis comment was a joke."

Was it the Angry at the end of the post that made you conclude that it was a joke? Is it also a joke that Trashbox was considering getting a blowjob (which can't be purchased AFAIK if one doesn't possess a functional penis)?

MrsEvadneCake · 26/08/2016 11:25

I am Cake.

Sex is defined by your chromosomes

Gender is a set of oppressive and restrictive boxes to keep people in.

A bully, with a penis, in a dress is not a woman.

I respect your right to be called by the pronoun of your choice. To dress how you wish. To not be put in a gender defined box. I do not respect your demands to shut down women's voices.

ohdearme1958 · 26/08/2016 11:25

What the OP and Olena said on page 1.

They got it spot on

Hip Hip Hooray.

Biscetti · 26/08/2016 11:26

With you, Cote. As you know, I'm still spewing over it on the other thread...

If it is a joke which I'm pretty sure it isn't then it's not fucking funny. In any possible way.

mercuryrev · 26/08/2016 11:35

I am Spartacus

'Forcing people to accept an ideology to which they are opposed' is in a completely different ballpark to 'ensuring respectful debate'

MNHQ need to look at why they are doing the first thing under the pretence of doing the second

Somerville · 26/08/2016 11:37

I am Somer.

Having experienced in the workplace that agreeing to call someone with a penis she next led to a request to stop referring to breast feeding or periods because it offended the person in question, I now refuse to call people with a penis, she. However, neither would I intentionally call anyone by a noun or pronoun they dislike, and ask them to accept the same and not call me cis. Generally this means I call people by their chosen name, or on MN as 'that person' or 'they'.

100,000 slaves risked their lives to stand (and fight) with Spartacus, and I stand with other MNers, male and female, on this issue.

LifeIsGoodish · 26/08/2016 11:37

I am Spartacus.

Widen the boundaries of your sex. Do not dictate the norms of mine.

And also so many other clearly articulated statements on this thread.

But I think it is important to recognise that physical sex is not always as straightforward and binary as either XX or XY, and that some people are assigned a sex at birth (as opposed to a gender) because they are born with ambiguous genitals, and that it is possible to have XY chromosomes yet have vulva and breasts naturally. So some people do need to make a choice and we need to respect that choice, including change of pronoun.

However, outside those situations:

A man cannot become a woman, no matter what he does to himself (including medical and surgical procedures he may undergo), and no matter how he chooses to present himself (including his manner of dress, hairstyle, 'mannerisms', name and preferred pronouns).
Equally, a woman cannot become a man, no matter what she does to herself.

Which does not stop me from treating people with respect for our shared humanity, with good manners and consideration, and to expect the same treatment from them.

milpool · 26/08/2016 11:44

100,000 slaves risked their lives to stand (and fight) with Spartacus

Somerville you do know that you're not actually Spartacus, right? And you know that they were fighting to break free of slavery?

That is not the same as this by a long chalk Hmm

Buunychops · 26/08/2016 11:47

I'm in.

So many above have said how I feel; better than I ever could.

I will support the rights of anyone to live how they choose without fear of discrimination; but nor will I stand by while rights for women that have taken many many years to gain (and are still ignored) are being eroded.

I will not claim that basic biology is a lie.

CoteDAzur · 26/08/2016 11:48

Penetrating powers of observation, mil pool. We are all saying that we actually are Spartacus, the Thracian gladiator. You got it in one Hmm

hazeyjane · 26/08/2016 11:48

I don't think anything on this thread or the thread itself should be deleted, but if it is or if it is derailed. There will be another one, and if that goes, another one.....and another one..

SpecialAgentSpartacusRoars · 26/08/2016 11:49

I'd say the pressure on us bisexual/lesbians to have ^unwilling sex,' yknow, rape - from men is slavery.

That was the point.

SpecialAgentSpartacusRoars · 26/08/2016 11:49

Agreed hazey

witchmountain · 26/08/2016 11:50

Also want to support and suggest that MNHQ read the Guy Called Helen post.

'Woman', 'female' and 'she/her' all refer to people who were born female. 'Man', 'male' and 'him/his' all refer to people who were born male.

Yes, language moves on and develops spontaneously but that is not the same as deliberately imposing and policing changes to language which deny reality and eliminate the ability to describe it.

People don't feel male or female, they just are. People might feel masculine or feminine. Personally I can't find any use for those words for myself because I think the construct of gender is bullshit, but if you believe there are two genders with specific characteristics then you can go ahead and use masculine and feminine to describe yourself. Describe yourself as gender non-conforming if you like. I can see how you might find that helpful in a world where the construct of gender exists in some people's minds. Personally I think it risks further entrenching the idea of gender rather than challenging it, but I don't need everyone to agree with me on that point. However you describe yourself, as far as I'm concerned we're humans with a range of human characteristics.

You can call me a cis woman if you want, but it doesn't make any sense because you have no idea whether I identify as a gender at all.

If you prefer to present yourself as the opposite sex in terms of appearance (dress, hair, makeup) with or without hormones or surgery, then I absolutely support you in doing so and empathise with finding your body difficult to accept, but that doesn't mean you have become a man or a woman. You are a man presenting as a woman or vice versa, or a transman or transwoman. I don't think for a second that a transwoman is any less than me but the transwoman is not a woman.

The link to the equalities legislation was really helpful (and eye opening!). The example they give (a transwoman being served in the pub and being repeatedly called sir and him, despite complaining) describes a situation where there would have been no need to use any pronouns at all, so deliberately choosing to do so and using male ones, even after a complaint, probably would be an act of aggression and harassment and it's quite right that people should be legally protected from that (and from not being served etc). However, if you are discussing a third party, the use of third person pronouns is unavoidable without using vey clunky sentences. The law as described seems to apply to organisations and businesses who might employ a trans person or from which the trans person might receive a service. It isn't clear that it applies in the context of individuals having a public discussion.

Even if the law did apply in that context, it could still be a reasonable response to challenge the law by protesting against it. Pretty sure that's how we got the vote. Sometimes protest means ignoring a law - Rosa Parks for example.

Some people will prefer to use she to refer to some or all transwomen. Maybe they will make a distinction based on the degree of transition and maybe they won't. Some people will prefer to use he, as this matches the sex of the person being discussed. I think that's fine, even if the person is offended. I would also absolutely defend the right of others to offend me. It can't come down to what offends people because that is so subjective.

With regard to trying to use they/their in sentences where it just sounds awful, we actually do have a singular neuter third person pronoun - 'it'. We use it quite comfortably to refer to unborn babies when we don't know the sex. To use it for person when the sex is known would be seen as contemptuous but that doesn't have to remain the case - language could evolve to make the usage acceptable.

HoneyDragon · 26/08/2016 11:50

I'm not. I'm Tony Curtis.

seagreengirl · 26/08/2016 11:51

Late to this , but just wanted to stand in solidarity.
I will never refer to the hateful Ada J Wells, as anything other than he. If I am banned then so be it.

Somerville · 26/08/2016 11:51

As a classicist by training, I know a lot about Spartacus and his endeavour to fight the bonds of oppression - the most successful one there was against the Roman Empire. Happy to discuss that on another thread, as I respect the fact that this one is primarily for declarations of support milpool.

baringan · 26/08/2016 11:54

How can it run contrary to 'scientific evidence' to call someone born a man a 'he'?

It might be rude and discourteous but it is not scientifically incorrect.

I am Spartacus.

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 26/08/2016 11:55

And I'd add that in large parts of the world women are denied the right to bodily autonomy, the right to own money or property and are expected to work unpaid on behalf of men who to all intent and purpose own them. Sounds a lot like slavery to me.

baringan · 26/08/2016 11:56

I have read about Ada Wells and he sounds charming Hmm happy to be banned for saying that some of the ideology he spouts is desperately misogynistic and unpleasant.

CalypsoValdez · 26/08/2016 11:57

This is a much-needed thread - as a pp wrote:

Widen the boundaries of your sex. Do not dictate the norms of mine.

I'm a woman, I was born a woman. The fact that I wear makeup about twice a year at most, don't own any heels, live mainly in jeans and work in a male-dominated profession doesn't alter my female status one iota.

milpool · 26/08/2016 11:57

CoteDAzur my issue was more the comparison with slavery.

Being asked to call someone by a particular pronoun is in no way comparable to being a slave.

milpool · 26/08/2016 11:58

Saskia that's not the same as the issue being discussed here though.

timelytess · 26/08/2016 11:59

I'm finding it a bit weird that, on a thread confirming and celebrating our womanhood, everyone is identifying with a man

So very "MN" to pick holes in a positive action. Congratulations.

Meanwhile, if you are a biological woman, your status and rights are being eroded by a group of men who think they can improve on your standards of woman-ness.

But you go ahead and focus on Spartacus as a biological male, rather than on the positive action of those around him.

Then the thread can disappear up its own backside and everyone can forget it.

Except the encroachers, who will enjoy their victory and continue to chip away at female identity to further their own purposes.

MiaowTheCat · 26/08/2016 12:00

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