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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Seriously MN this is fucking bullshit.

1001 replies

DeathAnTaxes · 24/08/2016 23:14

Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.&Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.

ONE poster wanted to discuss pronouns and they won. A thread about women being shut down by transactivists was shut down by a ta.

Fucking brilliant.

AND FOR THE RECORD THE PERSON'S PRONOUNS ARE 'THEY'

A vile misogynist was "misgendered" be being called he, because we can not even discuss who is doing this.. It is he's. It is men.

they was not even a thing 5 years ago. If I today demanded my pronouns be "Vagina owner" would everyone have to respect that?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
user1471734618 · 25/08/2016 01:50

I was thinking of identifying as a man, and therefore earning more over my lifetime. Also people might listen to me more.
I wonder how I should go about it....

Inertia · 25/08/2016 01:54

It seems to be the way that this particularly extreme - yet influential - form of activism works to have a detrimental effect on women. Any attempt by women to discuss issues affecting women -including threats to women's safety generated by particular activists - is leapt upon by MTT screaming transphobia/ bigotry/ pronouns/ Terf / cis- privilege.

It's absolutely shocking that an educational institution is prepared to metaphorically throw its female community - especially its lesbian community - in order to protect the delicate feelings of its more outspoken misogynists.

MN is perhaps the last mainstream place where issues affecting women can be discussed. If the terminology around trans issues is so fragile that discussion about a self-promoting individual is shut down due to use of that person's preferred pronouns which happen not to match the choice of another person on the thread, then we are in danger of not being able to say anything at all as the language is taken away.

Inertia · 25/08/2016 01:58

'under the bus' vanished in the edit there...

Rockingaround · 25/08/2016 02:01

inertia perfectly put. I can't believe the university are responding so irresponsibly.

222CherryCoke · 25/08/2016 02:02

It pisses me off that googling "Ada Wells" now brings up the misogynist rantings of an entitled male.

This is Ada Wells. The real, female one, who did brave and important things for women's empowerment and liberation.

OlennasWimple · 25/08/2016 02:02

FFS it wasn't all about the pronouns, as Judy is making perfectly clear

Trashbox · 25/08/2016 02:06

I am done with MN because of this. I too would be interested in hearing of other 'safe female' forums we can migrate to?

Italiangreyhound · 25/08/2016 02:06

Quack Re "I think that the trouble I have with seeing this as a massive threat to women is that it seems to be about a bunch of very unusual men who most men won't identify with at all. It is so different to the misogyny that ye olde misogynists won't transfer their allegiance from one to the other."

But the message is 'similar' isn't it? Women's bodies are for male pleasure, women's views don't count, we need to STFU and listen to males.

I am not disputing that some people feel real gender dysphoria and some trans women make a lot of sense as they talk about their trans situation.
As a woman I am perfectly able to discern when another is speaking badly of women, whether that person is wearing a dress or not!

Sadly the 'rules' of gender (which is social construct, stereotypes around what it means to be female or male), are very dangerous and harmful to women. Some women feel so uncomfortable with their female bodies that they seek to be rid of them.

Try googling around about young women de-transitioning who thought they were men, and identified as trans men. Then you will see some of the victims of the current trend for people to identity as trans.

Women who started taking Testosterone and who now have 5' O'clock shadows, or who have bound their breasts all the time, or even had double mastectomies, who felt so uncomfortable being women that they felt they must be men. Sometimes encouraged by counselors etc to transition.

The current social media trends and the impending new laws mean it is almost impossible to discuss some of these issues freely for fear of being labelled 'transphobic'.

According to some people's views any male who identifies as a female needs to be acknowledged as 'female'.

Fuck that. Even those of us who are supportive of trans people, even trans people themselves, can fall foul of some new unwritten rule about how we can talk about the current and increasing phenomenon, which in some cases wants to identify children as young as three as potentially trans!

So this can all be massively dangerous to a number of people if we cannot talk openly about these issues.

For the record I am very polite to trans people in real life. I am supportive of human rights for all, and I am a very compassionate person. But when discussing a person who has spouted hate speech, I won't go along with their version of reality.

Sorry, I know I am probably preaching to the converted but I do see this as massively dangerous for women and girls. Mumsnet is one place we can discuss these issues and it is very unfair that discussions are closed down. I for one wish no ill will to anyone, even a hate speaker but they should not be allowed to continue to spout hate!

EttaJ · 25/08/2016 02:14

actualfugg Excellent post. Where indeed and how. Utterly ridiculous.

APlaceOnTheCouch · 25/08/2016 02:18

It is dangerous to women and girls. And I have no idea why MNHQ is pandering to it. It seems to be a constant commitment to reducing everything to the individual. Yy as an individual Ada holds abhorrent views but arguably the most important point is the erosion of women's voices; the bullying of lesbians and the fact that someone as objectionable as Ada could hold an elected post.
How the hell can Ada's desire for certain pronouns trump that? It's like deleting a thread about male violence because violent men might find it offensive Hmm

CheerfulYank · 25/08/2016 02:19

I've skipped to the last page but I can tell how we got here in America.

We in the States are so divided as a country between Democrats (liberals) and Conservatives (Republicans). I know you're also divided in the UK but it's reached a complete fever pitch here in the years following 9/11. You only have to look at the absolute shit show that is the Trump nomination to see that.

And right now in the States, the ONLY people who are speaking out against the trans movement are doing so from a Conservative (almost exclusively) religious standpoint.

I am the ONLY person I know in my immediate close circle of friends who is strongly against this. They are all for it, seeing it as an extension of gay and lesbian and even minority rights. To openly declare myself a TERF (which I am) would be shocking to everyone who knows me. I am religious but liberal and my anti-trans feelings come solely from feminist and scientific objections, nothing to do with religion in the slightest. Yet to say I am against it publicly would be akin to outing myself as a supporter of the fucking Westboro Baptist Church or something. Seriously.

So I think there probably are more people who've had their peak trans moment of 'wait a fucking second, this isn't right at all' but are staying quiet because they don't want to look like a total Trump voter.

Just5minswithDacre · 25/08/2016 02:21

Quack, this bloke called a lesbian cuntscum (and various other niceties)--also an anti semite and a homophobe

He/she/they/margarine said what??

CheerfulYank · 25/08/2016 02:24

Right usual, that's the shitty thing. Like Rachel Dolezal can identify as black all she wants but it's not going to go the other way. A poor black man cannot identify as a rich white Ivy League athlete and get away with rape, for instance. And men can identify as women (and women as men) but they could put on jeans and cut their hair and make more money. Or, you know, not get stoned for venturing out without another male. Or be born in the first fucking place in one of the countries where they abort female fetuses at an alarming rate.

NickiFury · 25/08/2016 02:27

I'm so bored with pretending men are women, of having to pretend to admire these brave souls. Bored bored bored. I am just not doing it anymore. That's that.

For those interested in a safe space to discuss these issues, there is a group on FB doing just that, many of you are probably in it as a lot of our members came from MN. So if you're interested please PM me Smile

user5318008 · 25/08/2016 02:30

LGBT organisations and societies need to split. Gender non-conformity is very common amongst LGB people. Trans is completely at odds with that. I'm sick of seeing 'LGBT' attached to things that have fuck all to do with LGB. Supposed 'LGBT' organisations celebrating teenagers being sterilised and scarred for life while LGB adults say 'I was that feminine boy/masculine girl!' and get either completely ignored or called bigots because the trans movement needs trans children. Their 'just born that way' claims would lose a lot of validity if everybody stopped encouraging children and young adults to identify as trans.

KoalaDownUnder · 25/08/2016 02:33

I just googled this person. What the actual fucking fuck??

And mumsnet's top priority is his 'right' (quotes intentional as I don't believe such a right exists) to insist on being referred to by a plural pronoun?

I am so fucking angry right now. Angry

OlennasWimple · 25/08/2016 02:36

Hear hear Italian

CheerfulYank - I'm in the US too, and also have to bite my tongue amongst my friends, who I guess haven't stopped to engage in any gender critical way with the narrative that transwomen deserve protection from men being able to access women's spaces, and therefore think that anyone who raises concerns about people with penises in the women's bathrooms must be a Bible-bashing Republican Sad

Italiangreyhound · 25/08/2016 02:38

There is also a place on Facebook called 'Discussing gender critical & gender identity' it is mostly people in the USA, but also UK and Australia. It also attracts trans people who wish to discuss gender issues. Generally the discussions are very fair and polite, most of the time. Even though people hold differing views, generally, it is polite.

singingsixpence82 · 25/08/2016 02:39

I'm another one who is disappointed at the decision to pull the thread. I agree that there were people who weren't treating ego entirely fairly but I've seen far far worse be allowed to stand (and some points against ego's point of view were perfectly valid). It was fairly typical disagreement - no idea why posts contravening the guidelines couldn't have been individually removed, most posts were perfectly sensible, civil and intelligent and ego had supporters agreeing with her as is the case in most two way debates.

For anyone interested in other safe spaces there's the Gender Critical section of reddit. Gendertrender.com also has discussions although there are times when I personally don't like the tone that is used (more often by some of the commenters than by the blog's author- but if these places are the only places where you can use the word "man" to describe someone who fits the dictionary definition of the term "man" perfectly I'm not sure what else you can do.)

Italiangreyhound · 25/08/2016 02:42

PS cheerfulyank I too am a Christian (in the UK), a gay-marriage affirming one, and my views on trans issues are informed from a feminist perspective and not a Christian one. Sadly, many Christians who are concerned about trans issues would also be concerned about 'gay issues'! I try and keep all these areas separate and just deal with the reality of situations as they appear!

FixItUpChappie · 25/08/2016 03:21

signalling my support for the OP Wine

MissBeaHaving · 25/08/2016 03:26

Another adding my name in support for you Op.

LucyBabs · 25/08/2016 03:45

thetab.com/uk/edinburgh/2016/08/23/ada-wells-resigns-eusas-lgbt-officer-25017
Hopw this link works

LauraBiding · 25/08/2016 04:56

Horrified. Have just followed links in the video DeathAnTaxes posted, to that awful man's fb page. Two of my "friends" have liked the page! Shock

KoalaDownUnder · 25/08/2016 04:58

Ada Wells comes across as a psycho.

I am in full support, OP. This pandering to misogyny really has to stop.

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