Seriously MN this is fucking bullshit.

[DeathAnTaxes]

Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.&Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.

ONE poster wanted to discuss pronouns and they won. A thread about women being shut down by transactivists was shut down by a ta.

Fucking brilliant.

AND FOR THE RECORD THE PERSON'S PRONOUNS ARE 'THEY'

A vile misogynist was "misgendered" be being called he, because we can not even discuss who is doing this.. It is he's. It is men.

they was not even a thing 5 years ago. If I today demanded my pronouns be "Vagina owner" would everyone have to respect that?

This woman's video presentation is an utterly brilliant summary of every issue raised on this thread and why it is such bullshit. It says it all. Nice, sane, non phobic woman who can separate trans rights from women's rights and explain why.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/

Noted. Japab is ignored.

japab means it's possible to change the meaning of the word woman to include men. It doesn't change the fact there are 3 classes of human (previously known as male, female and intersex) just means we need a new name for the vulva have rs.
He thinks he's very philosophical and clever and doesn't get why people-formerly-known-as-women might be arsey about having their identify ripped away from them as part of post-modernist pontificating. I suggest we ignore him.

But, Chewysofa, what if the alternative to using that particular word (and offending a subset of a minority group) is to use it and instead offend a much larger pool of people, as by using that word you are appropriating their identity?

I think the post upthread regarding the social contract of trying to pass makes sense, actually. Dial back 10 - or even 5 - years and there were far fewer trans people. You had what I think would have been called transsexuals, i.e. people who felt that they experienced actual dysphoria and wanted (and often had) major surgery and went to huge lengths to try and become as close to and pass as the sex they felt they should have been. I use sex intentionally as I'm referring to the more traditional born in the wrong body type trans narrative. I think many people were fairly willing to 'play along' and use preferred pronouns and so on, and I also think that this is the type of person who many people are still thinking of when they discuss trans issues. In many cases these individuals didn't pass, not really, but many/most considered the use of the pronoun to be harmless and considered such individuals with sympathy, not fear.

But the reality is that trans has become a far broader and more dangerous umbrella term, and so now as people become more aware of this the sympathy is being eroded and replaced by fear and anger which in turn leads to a refusal to use the chosen pronouns etc, because it's no longer about a small number of individuals but about an additional, rapidly increasing group of people exhibiting behaviour ranging from attention seeking special snowflakery through to rampant misogynistic male entitlement.

Tbh I physically can't read more than a sentence of japab-speak

So unlike the entire animal kingdom, with few exceptions, humans have subjective opinions on male/female??í

Not sure the rest of the animal kingdom has words, labels and concepts. But if it did, then yes, there would be no more objective reality behind monkeys deciding that what it means to be a man/woman is 'to be in possession of an XY/XX chromosome' that there is for us. And these monkeys would be in error if they thought there was, when disputing what other monkeys think these concepts mean.

+1 everything oscar and fugg just said.

Ban me too MNHQ because I also think a person can't change their sex and threads shouldn't be taken down and posters banned for pointing that out or using words like "he" and "she" to talk about men and women.

Tbh I physically can't read more than a sentence of japab-speak

JAPAB
I guess the monkeys would still know though which ones have penises and which give birth to little monkeys.

Re being offended and using terms that offend and hurt others

If stating facts is hurtful, that's not nice, but it's unavoidable. Religious people might be very offended to be told there's no evidence for god. Woo lovers might be hurt and offended to be told homeopathy is no better than placebo. But sometimes it is necessary to state facts.

It is not necessary to call anyone cuntscum or invent new words like "cis" to explain perfectly well understood words like "woman".

I guess the monkeys would still know though which ones have penises and which give birth to little monkeys.

^this.

He thinks he's very philosophical and clever and doesn't get why people-formerly-known-as-women might be arsey about having their identify ripped away from them as part of post-modernist pontificating. I suggest we ignore him.

No, he just wished to make the point that those who act as if they have BIOLOGY! and SCIENCE! on their side may be mistaken. When however they argue different points for why the old meanings should remain, along the lines you suggest for instance, then that is a different matter and one that was not being commented on.

I'd probably go for: If using a particular word really upsets a group of people, particularly a minority group, it shouldn't be used.

What about if an oppressed majority finds it offensive? I find it hugely offensive when you say woman means anyone who identifies as one as it means all the shit around me is all a result of my 'lady brain'.

It also means I identify as having a lady brain.

"There is no female mind. The brain is not an organ of sex. Might as well speak of a female liver." -Charlotte Perkins Gilman

Posting in full support of the OP. This is utter bullshit, MN.

Sorry - following this closely but really slowly.

Again, in another who puts her hand up to being ignorant but trying to learn fast. Can someone explain what a "peak trans" moment is?

hex it's the moment a former trans ally goes "whaaaaaat? Fuck this shit - I'm not supporting concepts that actively hurt women and girls"

Disclaimer - my definition only

Started an I am Spartacus thread if anyone's interested. Thought it would be good to have all such statements in one place - good for impact and all that.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2716595-TransAgenda-BullShit-The-I-am-Spartacus-Thread?watched=1

I'd probably go for: If using a particular word really upsets a group of people, particularly a minority group, it shouldn't be used.

There is also another moral issue. Is it right to collude in someone's delusion?

I think that's a huge part of this on MN. It can all be very personal and that is used to the advantage of some contributors to the debate. I think MNHQ are genuinely confused when they come up against a report of a PA and react as if stating a biological fact is an attack.
So we have to pretend. We are asked to buy into this crap. We are censored if we don't.

The word woman has always meant the person who can bear children.

The word man has always meant the one who put their penis in to a vagina and helped make a baby.

BINARY AS FUCK

Woman never meant "one who likes lippy".

Man never mean "one who watches the footy on a Saturday".

So, yes, SCIENCE and BIOLOGY!

All the gender stuff came after because men like to keep "the one who can bear children" in check.

I always wondered what it would feel like when I found "my people". Thanks to so many for such eloquent and thoughtful posts. I hope MNHQ can come up with a suitable 'position' soon.

Also posting to support OP and all my like-minded sisters.

Also also to say that I think Miranda Yardley is one of the bravest people I've ever not-met. Miranda, I salute you.

"those who act as if they have BIOLOGY! and SCIENCE! on their side may be mistaken."

"May"?

You really should stop acting as if you know something that we don't. At least until you can say that we ARE mistaken and PROVE it.

"Transwomen are women" is a lie that is as dangerous to transwomen as it is to women

This was written by my partner, Helen, who is also transsexual.

"But this is a lie, it’s a vicious lie that is as dangerous for transwomen as it is for women. It’s a lie that sets us up to be triggered every time we are called he, or 'guys' or somebody dares to suggest that we have male biology. Even a cursory glance from a stranger can cut to our very core. The very foundations of our self-worth are fragile."