Seriously MN this is fucking bullshit.

[DeathAnTaxes]

Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.&Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.

ONE poster wanted to discuss pronouns and they won. A thread about women being shut down by transactivists was shut down by a ta.

Fucking brilliant.

AND FOR THE RECORD THE PERSON'S PRONOUNS ARE 'THEY'

A vile misogynist was "misgendered" be being called he, because we can not even discuss who is doing this.. It is he's. It is men.

they was not even a thing 5 years ago. If I today demanded my pronouns be "Vagina owner" would everyone have to respect that?

^A man cannot become a woman, no matter what he does to himself (including medical and surgical procedures he may undergo), and no matter how he chooses to present himself (including his manner of dress, hairstyle, 'mannerisms', name and preferred pronouns).
Equally, a woman cannot become a man, no matter what she does to herself.^

I shall not deviate from this position. To do so would be insanity.

I shall conduct myself politely and with the respect that individuals are due simply by virtue of them being human beings.

I deplore the oppression of any individual on the basis of how they present themselves in public or in private. I support the right of adult MTT and FTT to make whatever changes they wish to their bodies and to present themselves however they wish. I oppose any discrimination such individuals may face. MTT and FTT may face particular difficulties, e.g. with regard to accessing appropriate and sensitively delivered healthcare, and I fully support their rights to obtain the services that they require on an equal footing with any other person.

D'ya geddit, MNHQ? I am really not a bigot and am really not a transphobe.

BUT MTT are NOT women. And FTT are NOT men.

If on the basis of this, you wish to ban me, so be it.

Yup. You can ban me too

OTheSpartacusManatee

Actually could you also define transwoman, and woman while you're at it Chewy?

out of sheer interest, as a mum I asked my 3 dc (dd1 is 16, ds is 14, dd2 is 12) two questions. We're a pretty open about stuff family, my sister is gay, dh is a dr so talking about body stuff is right up there with good dinner table convos!

1. Imagine you're a lesbian. Who would you want to have sex with?

dd1 - a woman
ds - what? a girl, duh!
dd2 - someone who loved me. and a girl, obviously!

2. Still imagining you're a lesbian, would you want to have sex with someone who said they were a woman but had been been born a boy and still had a penis?

dd1 - ahhhhh no! thats a man!
ds - what? don't be stupid!
dd2 - with a boy? when I'm supposed to like girls? why are you asking me this?

After i reassured them i don't mind what sexuality they are! But to ordinary teenagers, the type of stuff we're discussing here gets the reaction "WTF???"

I'd probably go for: If using a particular word really upsets a group of people, particularly a minority group, it shouldn't be used.

Like 'cis' and 'cuntscum'?

Well, I will also stand with Oscar, Manatee, and the many, many others and say that there is no such thing as a male lesbian. It cannot exist. The term is ridiculous.

Like TERF?

Using she for a male person upsets a group of people, so here we have the impasse.

What the actual fuck?

So I could put a wig and a dress on my cat, and therefore it would be an adult woman? It has a tail, but that's ok because it 'identifies' as a woman?

I'm sorry, no. Identifying with a sex doesn't make you that sex. As someone else said, there is no such thing as a female penis.

I have no issue with transgender people, but it seems to me there is a rising in the thinking they are better than us bog-standard born female women.

Also, I'm a tomboy. always have been. So should you all call me 'he'??

This is so fucking headfucking.

I hadn't given transgenderism much thought until I came across the discussions on Mumsnet. Reading about the condemnation of lesbians who don't want to have set with pre-op transwomen, has there also condemnation of men who have acted in a similar fashion? Apologies if this has already been discussed and I missed it.

So, are people saying that referring to trans women as "he" is not transphobic? Or are people saying it is transphobic but they want to do it anyway?

The definition of transphobia is a vague one. And not what most would assume it means. To me, and in my experience, it seems to mean any disagreement or questioning of the trans agenda, movement, ideology, people or anything that any trans person says or does. It's like a fog of confusion that TAs like to throw down to misdirect and muddy a discussion in order to silence dissenting voices. The adding of "phobia" or "phobic" to a word, is cleverly autological. People don't want to be called phobic of anything. So it immediately closes them down and stops them in their tracks.

So when people wave about the "transphobia" placard, it always makes me wonder whether they are really offended by what's being said, or, if they are actually trying to shut down the discussion.

Over to you, MNHQ.

Miranda, you have it exactly.

That's one of my favourite essays ever. I recommend it to all my students!

I've gathered from the little I've read already that MNHQ have taken the position of supporting people's preferred gender identities and pronouns, over and above biological truth, by banning posters for 'deliberately' misgendering people.

There are no 'biological truths' which tell us what a "man" and a "woman" are. There might be objective truths, as discovered by biologists, that there are two sexes of humans and one has this chromosome and the other has that chromosome, and so on, but the notion that the concept of "man" and "woman" exclusively denotes one of these sexes is not something that exists objectively, independently of human agreement that this is what the words mean.

Just saying that it is a false notion for people to think that man=XY chromosome and woman=XX chromosome is any less "made up" than anyother conceptualisation of what it means to be one or the other, would be.

Sure, no-one is required to agree with anyone else's concepts of what it means to be a man or a woman, but to act as if you have some kind of objective reality on the side of the one you believe in? Hmmm.

Sorry - sex not "set"

Oh captain my captain

I too support the OP.

What?

Objective truth?

So unlike the entire animal kingdom, with few exceptions, humans have subjective opinions on male/female??

"[T]he now widespread sense of entitlement to unilaterally define others’ reality; the idea that it ought to be within one’s rights to control others’ ability to directly or vocally contradict your desired effect."

Well put.

Actually I've no idea what you meant. You post makes no sense JAP

EddieStobbart Owen Jones, a gay man who thinks that lesbians should accept the existence of 'female penises,' was angry and insulted when asked whether he'd perform cunnilingus on a transman who had a vulva. I don't know what anyone else has said about men who don't want to have sex with transwomen, though. It's telling that it's always women who are expected to accommodate men's 'identities' and their sexual desires.

Japab this isn't a thought exercise. This is actual reality life stuff that's happening to women. TRAs are pushing for laws to be changed to remove the rights of women.

JAPAB has seemed less than concerned about the rights of women in his previous posts on other threads.

Also loving the "I am Spartacus" approach

Meh, JAPAB will tie you up in newspeak knots if you let him. Best not to engage.