Seriously MN this is fucking bullshit.

[DeathAnTaxes]

Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.&Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.

ONE poster wanted to discuss pronouns and they won. A thread about women being shut down by transactivists was shut down by a ta.

Fucking brilliant.

AND FOR THE RECORD THE PERSON'S PRONOUNS ARE 'THEY'

A vile misogynist was "misgendered" be being called he, because we can not even discuss who is doing this.. It is he's. It is men.

they was not even a thing 5 years ago. If I today demanded my pronouns be "Vagina owner" would everyone have to respect that?

Women have the right to say no.

This. ^^ The whole four threads in a nutshell.

I read trashy American tabloids so you don't have to.

Last week they featured a female song writer with a gossip worthy past :

'read about my two celebrity relationships! I was married to Caitlin Jenner then lived with Elvis for years! '

Not to get overly Romantic about it, but the 'I'm Spartacus!' approach is and interesting one that should give pause for thought by MN.

I'm Seek and I think Ada Wells is a man and men can't become women.

Thanks Matilda.

Not been banned yet (obviously!). I suggest to MNHQ that if I, and others, have not yet been banned for the act of stating that we will continue to be informed by biological science when using pronouns, that Posie should be reinstated, assuming she still wishes to be a member of MN.

In case my position is not clear to MNHQ:

A man cannot become a woman, no matter what he does to himself (including medical and surgical procedures he may undergo), and no matter how he chooses to present himself (including his manner of dress, hairstyle, 'mannerisms', name and preferred pronouns).
Equally, a woman cannot become a man, no matter what she does to herself.

I shall not deviate from this position. To do so would be insanity.

I shall conduct myself politely and with the respect that individuals are due simply by virtue of them being human beings.

I deplore the oppression of any individual on the basis of how they present themselves in public or in private. I support the right of adult MTT and FTT to make whatever changes they wish to their bodies and to present themselves however they wish. I oppose any discrimination such individuals may face. MTT and FTT may face particular difficulties, e.g. with regard to accessing appropriate and sensitively delivered healthcare, and I fully support their rights to obtain the services that they require on an equal footing with any other person.

D'ya geddit, MNHQ? I am really not a bigot and am really not a transphobe.

BUT MTT are NOT women. And FTT are NOT men.

If on the basis of this, you wish to ban me, so be it.

Can someone PM me the Reddit group too pretty please?

I saw that magazine cover too, Morris. It's re-writing history, isn't it? She was married to Bruce, end of

Loving FRETGNIKCUF being opportunistically boasty about her DH's penis.

Agree with Oscar and SO many others.

MNHQ, you need a re-think on this one.
You need to define transphobia, and how it affects your decision making when deleting posts AND banning members. (Pondering the irony of talk of cotton ceiling and MNHQ banning members....)
You need to decide whether or not you truly believe that male people can decide that they are women and be called as such, and treated as such, and whether those who believe they are women, are entitled to impose that belief on others. If you think transphobia is people not respecting the assertion that men can decide to be women and ergo become one, then where does that stand for you in terms of the equality act and sex discrimination.
Because in the same way that people are entitled to their beliefs - whether Christian, Muslim, etc, and allowed protection to live and act under those beliefs, they are not allowed to force those beliefs on others. They can't insist that people must worship whichever god a group chooses to worship, because they believe it to be their truth. You can't insist that people here believe in a god, and capitalise "god" because it's their noun of choice. Ditto allah, vishnu etc. So how can you insist that people use pronouns for something they don't believe in? Can you not see the vicious irony in enforcing a rule on women (mostly), that has been made by men? Loads of us - me included, don't believe in the trans ideology. So I don't see how it is disrespectful to refer to biological terms if that's what we believe in. I absolutely and resolutely will defend the right of anyone to dress what they like, call themselves what they like, be what they like, think what they like. If someone wants to believe that a god impregnated a woman and she had his baby - that's fine. But don't insist that I believe it, and that I have to repeat it as a truth. Because I won't, and I don't believe that a he is a she or a man is a woman, just because he says so.

It's wrong to shut people down because they don't believe in something that you clearly do.

Posting in support of the OP.

I bet the real Ada Wells the original feminist one is rolling in her grave!

I wonder whether getting in first with sponsors is a good idea. No doubt trans activists will threaten Mumsnet with a massive fuss if they don't fuck over women.

Posting to add support.

This situation is getting ridiculous. Looking forward to MN response to it all.

She might be heartened by this thread though PikachuSayBoo

Another long time lurker and occasional poster posting in support of the OP.

This is an interest post about why the present unconditional insistence on pronouns is so wrong, it makes some good point and it's written by a trans person.

Redress Alert

"I was in an early wave of trans people who started the kind of reaction to so-called 'misgendering' that we commonly see now, and I’m sorry everyone; really, truly sorry. Nevertheless, I come from a time when the status quo among trans people was that if you didn’t pass, you tried harder to do so... In that model there was still awareness of a social contract, instead of the now widespread sense of entitlement to unilaterally define others’ reality; the idea that it ought to be within one’s rights to control others’ ability to directly or vocally contradict your desired effect."

What I would like to know is, why?

Why do I have to respect someone's preference to dictate to me what language I use? Did my right to Freedom of Speech all of a sudden wipe out over night?

I respect Ada Wells' right to call himself whatever he likes. I even respect his right to call me cuntscum or whichever derogatory term he would like to use.

Yes, he offends me. Yes I would like to argue why he should alter his dialogue.

But, I don't have a God given right to Not Be Offended.

So I must live through his offensiveness. Just like I lived through the offensiveness of a 21 year old man fingering me in the back of his car because I was a 14 year old girl in a short skirt.

Just like I lived through the offensiveness of being asked to attend meetings to give the clients 'something pretty to look at'.

And just like I still live through the offensiveness of my daughter being constantly told that toys for girls are pink and unadventurous.

I am a woman. So I lived through this offences. I grew from them and continue to grow.

So now Ada Wells must live through being offended when others refer to him as a man. Because it is their right to be free to do so. And because he has no right to Not Be Offended.

So, MNHQ if you believe this man's sensibilities are more important than my right to Freedom of Speech then you'd best ban me.

Because I will not be told which pronouns I can and cannot use.

Not by MNHQ. Not by anyone.

Posting in support of OP.

Every time a Twitter user threatens to 'cave in' a teenage girl's head for objecting to the term 'cis scum', every time one of our gay teenage daughters is told she must allow a penis inside her or she's a TERF bitch who deserves to die, you're right behind it.

MNHQ:are you right behind this?

Is this something you're proud to stand behind, HQ?

I've just read the whole thread and found myself learning an awful lot.
Thank you to everyone who has posted on here explaining how fucked up the world has become.
Adding support to the OP too.

I do think the analogy with religious tolerance is the way forward.

I totally support people's right to dress as they want, present as they want, call themselves what they want. I will happily campaign on their behalf if they find themselves facing discrimination in jobs, housing, the political sphere as a result. But I cannot be forced to share their beliefs. I will offer them the respect and consideration and politeness I would to any other human being. My respect for them will go up if they show themselves to be principled, decent people, and will be withdrawn if they prove themselves to be abusive or violent people.

This approach allows me to get along with people whose religious beliefs I don't share, whose politics I don't share, etc. I think it will work fine for people whose belief that gender is an internal feeling or is routed in some fundamental (but unproven) difference between men's and women's brains, a belief I do not share.

It also gives me the space to give a big fuck off to the idea that I should welcome Ada or Davina with open arms.

I won't be pretending to believe that adherence to stereotypes makes someone a man or a woman.

I won't pretend to think this in order to to save someone's feelings or to "validate their identity".

This is too important. Women are losing rights all over the western world - rights women in many developing nations are yet to gain - and the media is too scared of being called names to question it.

I don't want my children growing up in a world where we cannot speak the truth, where biology is unmentionable, men can enter any women-only space with impunity and teenage girls are sold the lie that you can identify out of your female body.

it isn't just fucking a person with a penis (i.e. a man) that is an issue either - if the penis is removed it is still fucking a man. They were born a boy, raised a man and have the experiences, socialisation & privilege that comes with that.

There is nothing you can do to a man that will make him a woman. Remove their genitals, put in fake boobs, wear a dress ... whatever ... still a man. A lesbian is attracted to women.

So, are people saying that referring to trans women as "he" is not transphobic? Or are people saying it is transphobic but they want to do it anyway?

WhatTheActualFugg a million likes and totally with you on this.

I'm saying it's biologically correct, Chewy.

Chewy could you define transphobia?

A man can choose to live his life and identify as a woman and I sincerely hope that those who chose to do so are happier and more fulfilled, I wouldn't think twice about addressing them by their preferred pronoun.

But a man cannot become a woman and I will never say that they can, not here or in RL.There is no such thing as a lesbian with a penis.