Seriously MN this is fucking bullshit.

[DeathAnTaxes]

Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.&Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.

ONE poster wanted to discuss pronouns and they won. A thread about women being shut down by transactivists was shut down by a ta.

Fucking brilliant.

AND FOR THE RECORD THE PERSON'S PRONOUNS ARE 'THEY'

A vile misogynist was "misgendered" be being called he, because we can not even discuss who is doing this.. It is he's. It is men.

they was not even a thing 5 years ago. If I today demanded my pronouns be "Vagina owner" would everyone have to respect that?

As an aside. Do you know how hard it is for an autistic person that struggles with pronouns anyway to even begin to get this right
I don't post on these threads because I know I'll get it wrong and get banned

Unbefuckinglievable.

One of the problems here is that an extremist position ('trans women are women, end of discussion') has become a dominant political position framed by activists in the same language of other civil rights movements, particularly race, and with a combination of a refusal to reasoned, open debate as well as significant manipulation of language the debate is incredibly toxic.

I believe we all want to be nice and supportive of people living their lives the way they choose, and I believe that there are ways to debate and address these issues without inflaming things further, but there must be free, honest and open debate and ideologies open to challenge.

It sickens me to see discourse about trans issues concentrated on people like 'Ada J Wells' as what that person stands for is the antithesis of what trans people should be fighting for.

Adjustable, whether or not people are attracted to fat & disabled people isn't the point. It reminds me of arguments I've seen that TWs are "a subset of women, like black or disabled or fat women...."

The problem with that is that it then assumes that the only women who are actually bothered about TWs are the white, slim, able-bodied ones & I'm certain that's not true.

The best sex I've ever had was with a partner who was both fat & disabled. Neither of those qualities was relevant. If she'd had a dick, though, we'd never even have got to the kissing stage.

Go Moll!!

Welcome to the thread, Miranda.

Old gimmer posting in support

So what do we think the probability of this thread being made into a Mumsnet Classic is?

Moll

I'd vote for it as a classic

I would love to see this in classics. Its something that has the ability to hugely impact on women and womens rights. When you lose the ability to define what you are (woman) you lose the ability to name the discrimination specifically targeted at you

It's the kind of thing Mumsnet should be championing.

Thread #2 needs to go in aibu for traffic and so it doesn't go poof

OfCrayonBorn this is what I was trying to express about bearded woman Alex It is very convenient and appealing for a male person to call himself genderqueer or non-binary, as it allows him both to continue to benefit from his male privilege when it suits him, and to launder himself of that privilege by claiming to be more oppressed by gender than females, because his gender identity is so marginalised and misunderstood.
From one of your links.

Jan Morris has made a meaningful and lasting transition and many people including some feminists would use she. If I met Morris and was in conversation then I wouldn't need to use she or he pronouns, it would be name or "you". However, despite hormones and surgery, Morris is still male, benefitted from male privilege as a writer and journalist and due to experiencing male puberty does have a masculine appearance.

I think it borders on NewSpeak to insist that female pronouns are used for somebody who isn't there or likely to read the discussion. Ada Wells, Caitlyn Jenner, Alex Drummond, Kellie Maloney, Ayla Holdom might have chosen female names, hormones, grown their hair and wear dresses and heels but they remain male.

I think men can wear whatever they like, pink, unicorns, make up, I don't care. But that doesn't make them a woman
⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️⤴️

I read 1984 recently, the way language is manipulated is chilling, especially when you compare it to how language is used in gender identity politics.

I support the Op wholeheartedly. In my world there are women and men. I would like to know how the trans people know what it is like to " feel like a woman " I have no idea what it feels like to be a man.

Birds I'd also recommend these ones:

www.notthenewsinbriefs.WordPress.com

www.transgendertrend.com

www.glosswatch.com

OfCrayonBorn
Doesn't it just. I write about this quite a lot and find myself referring to Orwell's essay 'Politics and the English Language'. In the early 1940s, Orwell was charged by the government into rewriting the English language so that it is simplified. He reached the conclusion that the effect of this would be to restrict the ability of ordinary people to describe their own lives, in particular their own difficulties, struggles and oppression. Orwell realised how important it is to control language, and this is what led to '1984'.

My ds2 is four. A few weeks back, a friend asked if I think he is transgender. Four!!

That is where this goes. And it can fuck well off.

Fascinating Miranda, I didn't know that. I'll definitely look up that essay.

I think men can wear whatever they like, pink, unicorns, make up, I don't care. But that doesn't make them a woman.

THIS.

"Broadening the bandwidth of what being a woman is"...? No, you're encroaching your male privilege onto women's spaces, penis first.

Miranda, that is very interesting - about 1984

Wow Miranda, I didn't know that. Very interesting!

Beyond -

Hello again everyone,

We're still getting lots of reports from you on this thread - and we want you to know that we hear you, but it's going to take us time to work through these complex, emotive issues before we can get back to you with a fully considered response. Thank you all for your input, please do continue to add your thoughts.

We'd like to reassure you once again that MNHQ will be discussing the points you've raised here and on other recent threads on transgenderism, and we will be responding once we have had a full and lengthy debate about this.