Seriously MN this is fucking bullshit.

[DeathAnTaxes]

Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.&Message from MNHQ: We're afraid we felt we had to delete this thread as we feel like it has strayed way outside of our Talk Guidelines. We do regard deliberate, malicious misgendering (as opposed to accidental slip ups) as transphobic. Thank you to everyone who took the time to post thoughtfully here. We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread. Thanks.

ONE poster wanted to discuss pronouns and they won. A thread about women being shut down by transactivists was shut down by a ta.

Fucking brilliant.

AND FOR THE RECORD THE PERSON'S PRONOUNS ARE 'THEY'

A vile misogynist was "misgendered" be being called he, because we can not even discuss who is doing this.. It is he's. It is men.

they was not even a thing 5 years ago. If I today demanded my pronouns be "Vagina owner" would everyone have to respect that?

It's not about the presence of penis. I don't give a fuck about penis. It's about the absence of vulva - which doesn't even seem to occur to most of them.

Indeed. That's why it's interesting (to me at least).

Do you think that makes it sound better? [puke]
I was talking about the corporate glass ceiling. It angers me, but it doesn't make me puke. I'm not sure the phrase 'cotton ceiling' works terribly well as a comparison, but I am quite interested in the idea that certain groups of people are less desirable.

So if a man (who was really a woman) was always a woman, really. And if clothes and looking like a woman don't matter, a la Daniel Muscato, why weren't lesbians throwing themselves at them all along?

They feel less desirable because they have dicks and and that's not a thing lesbians are in to.

Would you seriously entertain me weeping in to my cornflakes because gay men didn't want to have sex with my vulva and vagina?

Also isn't it interesting that straight men who don't want to fuck trans women are never vilified, only lesbians.

Apparently, many lesbians don't want to fuck trans women. That's interesting. The idea of the cotton ceiling explores why that might be. Some categories of people are perceived as less desirable in our society.

Do you not think that sexual attraction is a pretty innate subconscious thing? People can't rationalise themselves into being sexually attracted to someone that they aren't.
Lesbians fancy females. Vaginas, boobs, female pheromones. It's subconscious. "Presentation" doesn't fool the subconscious so lesbians can't rationalise themselves into being attracted to someone male, even if they are a trans woman. Nor should they be expected to.

Or do you think being gay is a choice and people can rationally decide to be straight?

Also isn't it interesting that straight men who don't want to fuck trans women are never vilified, only lesbians.

Yes this was a sickening re-occurance on that site posted earlier. Seems women who have transitioned/think they are blokes do not get half as wound up if men do not want to shag them, as these blokes who think they are women do when a woman wont shag them. Hmm

MNHQ: Please take this as a statement of intent that I will use the pronouns that correspond to an individual's BIOLOGICAL SEX. This is not malicious intent. This is accurate and biologically and factually correct. I will not engage in the pretence that a biological man, aka 'a man', can become a woman. This is a scientific impossibility. Pronouns are sexed, and apply to men and women accordingly.

We live in a post-Enlightenment world embracing scientific method, rationality and logic. I will not conduct myself on MN, or in any other sphere, in a manner which contradicts this.

I repeat, this is not malicious intent. In fact, MN would do well to consider the multitude of women who experience transindividuals' incorrect use of pronouns as a deliberate and malicious attack on us as individuals, as the wider group that is known as women, and on feminism. Males appropriating these words diminishes women and robs us of the linguistics means with which to discuss our reality and you oppression as women. I am one of these women and every time a man calls himself 'her', 'she', 'woman', 'lesbian' or engages in the pathetically laughable claim that 'she has a female penis' I am grossly offended and angered.

This is personal and this is deliberate. This is an attack.

I am reporting my post to you, in order that you may comment and decide whether or not you wish to continue to have me as a member of MN, given my stated intent to use pronouns accurately.

I could be physically attracted to someone but not want to have sex with them, it happens all of the time. I actually get quite attracted to a number of females, however I like cock. I do not do vagina (anymore, past my wilder days when younger)

Surely all of this 'they fancied me until they found out I had a dick' is the same as that...

However its put though, everyone has the right to refuse sex with whoever they want to without being labelled as some kind of monster for it.

What is really interesting is that transwomen don't want to fuck each other. Because apparently that "aggravates their dysphoria"

Why, they're just women, right?

Actually Trans porn featuring people with a penis and breast implants, is very very popular amongst straight men.

I am fat. If someone does not want to have sex with me because I am fat, that is their right.

Also isn't it interesting that straight men who don't want to fuck trans women are never vilified, only lesbians.

Yes, and I have serious concerns about why that is.

Or do you think being gay is a choice and people can rationally decide to be straight?

No. As I said before, personal preference differs from general phenomena. I know that there are lesbians who do have relationships with trans women, so it's not completely unheard of. Therefore, presumably, individuals have different preferences.

I hope I've been very clear that I don't think any woman should ever be pressured into any sexual activity for any reason.

I think the cotton ceiling is logical. Male people identify as women and lesbians. Other lesbians tell them they see them as women and lesbians. But none of them will have sex with them. Which means the lesbians are lying. They don't really see them as women and lesbians, but are happy to pretend they do. Hence cotton ceiling, you are being transphobic by refusing to have sex with me

I've never had any problem seeing every straight man I've ever met as a straight man. I must have met literally hundreds of them. With the exception of one, I haven't wanted to have sex with any of them.

Does that make me misandrist? Or just, you know, exercising my right to only have sex with someone I'm attracted to?

Or you might reasonably think a person is a woman and be attracted to them. The fact is you are attracted to them with the knowledge that they have a vagina and labia and you are hoping at some point to see them.

You have not signed up to suck a dick. And you should not be made to feel guilty or like a bigot when you choose not suck the surprise penis.

I'm a heterosexual woman and I get that. No surprise penises.

Why aren't MNHQ responding with anything real or meaningful?

Still working my way through the thread, but just wanted to post im support of the OP (in case the thread disappears!).

I hope I've been very clear that I don't think any woman should ever be pressured into any sexual activity for any reason

Not massively so, no, though I wouldn't have jumped to that conclusion. I think you're being obfuscatory and avoiding the issue. But thanks for the clarification.

Another post in support of the OP and common sense.

Likewise, I wholeheartedly support this.

Does that make me misandrist? Or just, you know, exercising my right to only have sex with someone I'm attracted to?

I think brasty was making the point that it is a logical conclusion of trans theory that if trans women are the same as women it is transphobic not to want to sleep with any trans woman if you a lesbian. And it is. Avoiding the issue, i.e. that trans women are actually men, doesn't help this, it helps their cause. Of course any individual can choose who they sleep with, but we have to stand up and say that it's fine lesbians don't want to sleep with any men at all, not just that they should be allowed to pick and choose which men they sleep with. Which is basically what that argument says.

MNHQ: Just grow a pair of ovaries, woman up and state what you really think. Your choices are:

1. Womanhood is defined according to science and biology. Woman are adult human females, girls and immature human females, where female is defined as belonging to the biological class that is capable of producing ova and bearing live young.

1. Womanhood is defined according to self identification and anyone who says 'I feel I am a woman' is ergo a woman.

It's quite simple. It's either/or. There is no intermediate position or shades of grey. Just state which it is, and we can all decide how we feel about it and whether we want to continue to be members.

You cannot choose to be 'nice' about this and try to accommodate everyone. If you permit transwomen to be called 'he', you are supporting the first position at the expense of the second. If you insist that transwomen are only to be called 'she', you are supporting the second and rejecting the first. In either scenario you are angering and offending people. You need to pin your colours to the mast and decide which is more important.

Again, I am reporting this, because YOU NEED TO DECIDE.

I was quoting from Page's post in my last, just trying to clarify brasty's post. Forgot to mark as quote.

Hear hear Oscar

Another one posting for support.

I was a libfem until I learned all about trans issues on Mumsnet.

In response to the mention of Posie being banned for potentially misgendering in the future, few pages ago, I was also threatened with a ban on this basis. We compromised that I could use "they" when talking about violent TW such as David/Davina Ayrton.

While I am really cross with MN for throwing women under a bus, this is still Ana amazing site for raising awareness of what's going on, so I think it's worth staying and fighting.

MNHQ - can you clarify how much revenue you get from advertisers wanting to target TW specifically vs the women and mothers who are members?