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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Transgenderism: the MNHQ position

389 replies

SarahMumsnet · 17/11/2015 11:12

Morning, everyone.

Given the number of threads about transgenderism on MN over recent weeks – and the fact that these threads tend to be strongly polarized – we thought it might be useful for us to come on and reiterate/clarify our position.

First and foremost, we’d like to remind everyone that Mumsnet is a site built on the values of tolerance, supportiveness and respect. We’re sure you’re all aware of our Talk guidelines by now, but for anyone new, do have a look: the key points in terms of transgenderism are, firstly, that we aim to keep intervention to a minimum and let the conversation flow, but that secondly, we will delete posts that we consider to be transphobic.

The obvious question, and one that’s been the subject of debate and a large number of reports over the last week, is what exactly we, as a site, consider to be transphobic. We’ve posted on this in the past – you can read the full post here, but in summary, we think it’s paramount to consider context, so rather than coming up with a “Mumsnet” definition of exactly what does and what doesn’t count as transphobia in our book, we think it’s sensible to ask users to adhere to principles of mutual respect and courtesy.

We think by and large this works well, but over recent weeks, some of you have been unhappy with the way in which we’ve dealt with the question of pronouns. Generally we delete posts in which people persistently refuse to refer to people by the pronoun (he/she; him/her) by which they’ve asked to be referred, out of respect for that individual’s wishes. Again, this isn’t something we’ve been rigid about; there are many instances (for example, on a recent thread about Jack Monroe) where we’ve felt that given the context/recency of the individual’s transition, deletion wasn’t appropriate - but broadly we tend to take the view that folk should refer to people by the name and pronoun those people choose.

There has been a question raised about whether or not we would delete the term “cis” when applied to posters on threads, on the grounds that some posters feel that being identified as a “ciswoman” rather than a woman is just as offensive as being addressed by the “wrong” pronoun.

We can see where these posters are coming from, so are of a mind to use the same rule of thumb when it comes to the term “cis” as we do for pronouns - i.e. we won’t necessarily delete every use of it, but if it’s applied pointedly to a poster who doesn’t identify as a ciswoman, we would delete that.

Transgenderism is a complex issue and one which has really only been discussed widely in the last couple of years. We are aware that there is a debate to be had about the differences between biological sex and gender, and how pronouns figure in this, and we’re glad that Mumsnet is a place where people feel able to have that debate.

But we are keen to make sure it takes place in a way that’s as civil and constructive as possible - and, frankly, in a way that means the threads on which it’s taking place don’t descend into a series of personal attacks which result in us having to delete lots of posts. We hope you’ll agree with us that the best way to achieve this is to start from a position of mutual respect - it’s only then that a productive discussion can take place. Essentially we’d hope that everyone could stick to criticising the argument(s), not the person.

We do think that by acknowledging posters’ rights to self-identification, we’re giving everyone the best chance of making their arguments heard.

Hope this makes sense. We’ll be keeping an eye on this thread, so do post your thoughts/questions below.

OP posts:
BeyondThirty · 21/11/2015 17:04

I imagine it will greatly depend on whether the individual deleter is a "terf", completely impartial, or an everyday feminism reader? And of course whethr the post is reported/how many times it is (with multiple times increasing the chances that a mnhqer will delete it, even if another had decided it was okay)?

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 21/11/2015 21:16

CoteDAzur - That is not misgendering, though.

Misgendering is when a transwoman wishes to be referred to as "she" and people keep calling her "he".

Saying that a transwoman is male is not misgendering. It is a statement of fact.

So have I got this right? When referring to a transwoman, saying 'he is male' would get deleted but 'she is male' wouldn't? It's bobbins, isn't it? Confused

I know that sex and gender are two different things but I thought the reason misgendering was so offensive was because it reminded a trans person of their maleness/femaleness (i.e. their sex, which cannot be changed).

Whatever the rules are, I think if MNHQ are going to have a 'position' they need to be more consistent. We need to know if we're allowed to state 'that person is male' / 'a penis is male' / 'a human with a penis is not female' / 'transwomen are male'. This is not something that should be left to the political whim of whoever's finger is on the delete button at the time, it's too important for that. If we cannot say these things when we need to, a discussion can't really be had here.

MNHQ please come back and clarify

WRT space for support for trans people - we have two LGBT topics, both of which contain threads about trans issues. From what I can see, gender-critical posters don't go on those threads. Is there a reason why those topics are not appropriate for trans support threads? Is it the word 'parents' in LGBT Parents? We somehow all manage to post on a forum called 'Mumsnet' even though we're not all mums. Is it because of the rising number of LGB people who wish to disassociate themselves from the T? Maybe that section needs a bit of reorganisation / renaming? It would be up to the people who use those topics to ask for changes but I don't see why support threads for trans people can't continue to be accommodated there somehow.

Buffy I liked your analogy to threads about termination. MN is big enough to host support threads for those who are considering / have had a termination as well as contentious threads on women's reproductive rights. Could we aim for a similar ethos wrt trans issues?

CoteDAzur · 21/11/2015 21:36

"When referring to a transwoman, saying 'he is male' would get deleted but 'she is male' wouldn't? It's bobbins, isn't it? Confused"

That's right. It's crazy.

MNHQ can't be seen to support offensive stuff even if it is actually true according to the laws of English language and so calling someone by a pronoun they find offensive is a deletable offence.

"Transwomen are male" is fact, though. We can continue to say it until transactivists manage to change the dictionary definitions of male and female.

Having said that, dictionary definitions of man (adult human male) and woman (adult human male) are also based on male and female, so we should be able to say that transwomen are men (adult human males) but that is considered gender which is apparently choice. And we are to respect the choices of males when they choose to consider themselves women. Apparently.

I don't claim to understand it all Confused

ShortcutButton · 21/11/2015 21:42

The thing about 'misgendering'; gender is a crock of shit.

When I say 'he' or 'she', I am referring to their sex

I never 'gender' anyone, incorrectly or correctly

Because gender is a crock of shit

He and she has always been used according to sex

OneMoreCasualty · 21/11/2015 22:00

Quite, shortcut!

RomiiRoo · 22/11/2015 07:32

Even if you accept the premise that a man who wishes to be called 'she' or 'they', takes hormones and has surgery is no longer a man linguistically, culturally and medically, they don't become a woman. That is the problem.

It is possible to argue that gender is an identity which can be chosen because of certain theoretical developments which reflect current neoliberal thoughts on gender (and neoliberal free market conditions; the identity 'woman' can be bought). But if sex is merely a social or cultural construct, then one also has to accept that part of the context for this is neoliberal ideology; the nature of surgical advance and possibility; developments in endocrinology; and a perception of gender equality at a societal level. This does not make it a FACT, it makes it a possibility at a particular historical moment - and as Buffy said up thread the fact that it also denies other possibilities (clothes, hormones, surgery do not make a woman; life course and experience rooted in biology do) is a question of power.

If you had a different dominant political perspective, a different collective view of medicine, and different gender hierarchies, then the arguments would change.

QueenStromba · 22/11/2015 09:30

Yep, he and she are male and female pronouns so relate to sex - if they were instead masculine and feminine pronouns then using he for a transwoman would be misgendering. I think that people using preferred pronouns was the first step towards 'transwomen are women just like any other', 'female penis', the cotton ceiling etc. Perhaps taking back our pronouns would be the first step towards tearing down all of the other bullshit. This can be done without using correctly sexed pronouns by using they in place of she or he, or just using someone's name. It can look a bit clunky but avoids misgendering while not giving that first inch.

RomiiRoo · 22/11/2015 10:15

I have come round to the idea of needing open discussion on this - I had a heated debate with H about it on Friday; he fits the mould of liberal male trying to be right on whilst upholding (unless challenged) gendered structures of power - and he has after a couple of days reflection conceded he can see my argument 'in some ways'. Which is progress, believe me...

BeyondThirty · 22/11/2015 10:21

My DH is the same romii. It was telling him he was a cisman (unless he thought he belonged to any of the other groups of course) and explaining that to him which sort of won him around. He is the least masculine straight man i know, though without being effeminate
He still gives me the Hmm look any time the subject is raised though! Grin

slugseatlettuce · 22/11/2015 11:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

jorahmormont · 22/11/2015 12:33

DP got very angry about it last night when we were in the car - he's furious that trans is being used as an excuse to invade safe spaces for women, and to silence feminist discussion of issues for women. (He was also incredulous when I explained cis to him - he said that he is not cis, he is a man, and I am not cis, I am a woman). It surprised me how passionately he feels about it, as although he holds very strong feminist views, he's kept out of my rants about transactivists as much as possible.

I'm very proud of him Grin

HermioneWeasley · 22/11/2015 16:12

Well done Mr Mormont!

Those of you whose husbands are still on this journey - have you shown him a picture of Coleen Francis and asked how he would feel if you or your daughters had to share a shower at the swimming pool with them? Because that's exactly what happened in Washington and the teenage girls swim team were somewhat surprised to find Coleen and her male body complete with penis in their showers. But Coleen "Identifies as a woman" so had a perfect right to be in there. At exactly the same time each week as the teenage girls. Which I'm sure was just an innocent coincidence.

INickedAName · 22/11/2015 18:17

I have had some talks with dh too. I usually read MN mostly in a the kitchen and he knows by the speed I walk into the living room that I'm about to talk at him about the latest thing I've learnt.

Dh thinks the smaller stuff like bathrooms are non issues, but agrees that prisons shouldn't be mixed. But, he doesn't think dd should be made to share changing space with male bodies, he doesn't worry about her intage sense if a TW being violent, it's from the sense that he can see how uncomfortable she is as her body changes, she's stopped messing around with her uncles because she is conscious of her breasts touching, today she wouldn't remove her coat when out for lunch with family, he can see her feeling self conscious in spaces she feels safe, so in a mixed changing room she would be understandably be uncomfortable, and he would hate for that discomfort to be called bigotry as happened with Lila Perry case, he'd be angry if it happened tbh. I won't repeat what he said about Colleen and the way the teenage girls were treat.

So he's changing his thinking but I don't think it's an issue that bothers him as much as me, and I think it's down to him being male and it's not his spaces at risk.

He didnt think it's a big as a problem as it's made out to be, but some of the recent news stories have challenged his thinking and he is where I was a year ago, having eyes opened (thanks to the MNers who helped me with that) and processing some of the crazy stuff he's read. There is a lot to take in.

shortcut I'm so sorry for what the women in your family have been through.

RufusTheReindeer · 22/11/2015 18:43

I agree with inicked

My husband is very similar

I think when things start affecting his daughter he will get angry about it but if she doesn't have a problem with it...

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