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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Transgenderism: the MNHQ position

389 replies

SarahMumsnet · 17/11/2015 11:12

Morning, everyone.

Given the number of threads about transgenderism on MN over recent weeks – and the fact that these threads tend to be strongly polarized – we thought it might be useful for us to come on and reiterate/clarify our position.

First and foremost, we’d like to remind everyone that Mumsnet is a site built on the values of tolerance, supportiveness and respect. We’re sure you’re all aware of our Talk guidelines by now, but for anyone new, do have a look: the key points in terms of transgenderism are, firstly, that we aim to keep intervention to a minimum and let the conversation flow, but that secondly, we will delete posts that we consider to be transphobic.

The obvious question, and one that’s been the subject of debate and a large number of reports over the last week, is what exactly we, as a site, consider to be transphobic. We’ve posted on this in the past – you can read the full post here, but in summary, we think it’s paramount to consider context, so rather than coming up with a “Mumsnet” definition of exactly what does and what doesn’t count as transphobia in our book, we think it’s sensible to ask users to adhere to principles of mutual respect and courtesy.

We think by and large this works well, but over recent weeks, some of you have been unhappy with the way in which we’ve dealt with the question of pronouns. Generally we delete posts in which people persistently refuse to refer to people by the pronoun (he/she; him/her) by which they’ve asked to be referred, out of respect for that individual’s wishes. Again, this isn’t something we’ve been rigid about; there are many instances (for example, on a recent thread about Jack Monroe) where we’ve felt that given the context/recency of the individual’s transition, deletion wasn’t appropriate - but broadly we tend to take the view that folk should refer to people by the name and pronoun those people choose.

There has been a question raised about whether or not we would delete the term “cis” when applied to posters on threads, on the grounds that some posters feel that being identified as a “ciswoman” rather than a woman is just as offensive as being addressed by the “wrong” pronoun.

We can see where these posters are coming from, so are of a mind to use the same rule of thumb when it comes to the term “cis” as we do for pronouns - i.e. we won’t necessarily delete every use of it, but if it’s applied pointedly to a poster who doesn’t identify as a ciswoman, we would delete that.

Transgenderism is a complex issue and one which has really only been discussed widely in the last couple of years. We are aware that there is a debate to be had about the differences between biological sex and gender, and how pronouns figure in this, and we’re glad that Mumsnet is a place where people feel able to have that debate.

But we are keen to make sure it takes place in a way that’s as civil and constructive as possible - and, frankly, in a way that means the threads on which it’s taking place don’t descend into a series of personal attacks which result in us having to delete lots of posts. We hope you’ll agree with us that the best way to achieve this is to start from a position of mutual respect - it’s only then that a productive discussion can take place. Essentially we’d hope that everyone could stick to criticising the argument(s), not the person.

We do think that by acknowledging posters’ rights to self-identification, we’re giving everyone the best chance of making their arguments heard.

Hope this makes sense. We’ll be keeping an eye on this thread, so do post your thoughts/questions below.

OP posts:
MultishirkingAgain · 19/11/2015 15:00

I think there's a lot of homophobia involved as well. It seemed to me that that was what was at stake with the boxing promoter person who decided to transition in his/her 60s. They were a confirmed public homophobe.

Maybe it's more acceptable to 'become' a woman than simply be a man who prefers to have sex with other men?

Because being a woman is an unimportant negligible identity and so can be played around with. To be a man is something solid and serious and shouldn't be messed with.

RomiiRoo · 19/11/2015 15:33

But I was reflecting on that too, Multi, watching different masculinities at play in a meeting - being a woman may just seem a more manageable citadel to conquer, than demanding a redefinition of masculinity to be more inclusive - and a path also more acceptable to men born as men as it reaffirms, rather than challenges, their status.

ArcheryAnnie · 19/11/2015 16:53

Multishirking I think you are right that homophobia (internalised and external) has a lot to do with people coming to identify as trans rather than gay. It isn't an accident that Iran - as has been pointed out numerous times here - has more men undergoing SRS than any country except Thailand.

The "trans guy poster boy", Teena Brandon, wasn't a trans guy at all, but a lesbian and a survivor of abuse who was trying to find a path to continue to survive. There's a good account of how her life has been co-opted to suit the current narrative here: www.triviavoices.com/the-inconvenient-truth-about-teena-brandon.html

FloraFox · 19/11/2015 17:09

Also, Iran is I think the only country with a higher rate of FTTs than MTTs as lesbians are coerced into transitioning.

ShortcutButton · 19/11/2015 17:18

I think a Trans topic would be good, to offer a support area.

I'll always post on a trans thread in chat or FWR; to point out erosion of women's spaces/services/protection

I'd leave alone, in a trans support area

ArcheryAnnie · 19/11/2015 17:22

I would be wary of expectations that a support area would have one unchallenged view on anything. There are trans women who are very public about saying that even after the long journey to full transition, making peace with the fact that you are still essentially male is essential to your long-term happiness. Saying this in a dedicated support thread might be viewed as incredibly supportive to some, and really frightening to another.

QueenStromba · 19/11/2015 17:37

Gender critical posters do already leave posts about trans kids in the LGBT topic alone. As far as I know anyway as I don't even go on that subforum as the transing of children really upsets me. As much as I'd like to persuade parents that they aren't necessarily doing the best thing for their child by transitioning them (especially given that four out of five 'trans' children grow out of it as long as they have no medical intervention), I really can't remain rational or civil on the matter because as far as I'm concerned it's child abuse.

BuffytheScaryFeministBOO · 19/11/2015 17:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RufusTheReindeer · 19/11/2015 18:09

Could we just have a support topic

You could post whatever you like but only supportive answers would be 'allowed'

RufusTheReindeer · 19/11/2015 18:10

Or you could have a support topic and then sub topics

ShortcutButton · 19/11/2015 18:16

Just revisiting the bleeding on the floor/flooding your trousers at work...the biological reality

On a recent trans thread, a trans poster was describing their upcoming reassignment surgwry and lamenting whether it would be successful/convincing/functional. I was totally triggered as a number of my family members and close friends have eñdured FGM, from aged 5, sometimes twice. With no sterility or anaesthetic or after care. My SiL couldnt deliver her firzt baby and she lost the baby in labour. I expressed that as an example as to why it was so upsetting to have men insist they are women, based on 'a feelung". A feeling, which women dont actually experience Confused

On a concurrent thread, my 'comparison' of gender reassignment surgery with FGM with used as an example of transphobia on MN Confused Sad Angry

It had me crying with anger and frustration. I find it hard to give a fuck about people wittering on about fucking pronouns; whilst simultaneously being so dismissive and minimizing of issues like FGM

ShortcutButton · 19/11/2015 18:18

And actually, I'm of a mind to reclaim our goddamn pronouns

QueenStromba · 19/11/2015 18:22

I don't use female pronouns for transwomen, it feels like saying that grass is red. I use they or their name.

BuffytheScaryFeministBOO · 19/11/2015 18:30

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ShortcutButton · 19/11/2015 18:47

She was 17 at the time buffy and had to walk 5 miles with the baby crowning, to get to a Dr

You just can't imagine, can you Sad

I'm sorry to post this stuff. People have said its irrelevant to the trans 'debate', that its a separate conversation

But I don't feel it is. These are precisely the reasons I can't accept TW as women and why I don't want them in women's spaces. Other experiences too, lots of them. But I mea, it's not just a high level academic debate is it. Trans people aren't the only ones with 'stories'

Modestine · 19/11/2015 18:53

A whole mirror section of MN for support only would be good. Rude people, and people who don't know what rude is, could go over to the other side.

BeyondThirty · 19/11/2015 18:55

Shit, shortcut :( Flowers

ShortcutButton · 19/11/2015 19:03

mod I think you will find that tg people and their allies have the same ability to be rude as gender critical feminists or anyone else Hmm

I do think a zeperate support area would be good, all the same

BuffytheScaryFeministBOO · 19/11/2015 19:04

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

QueenStromba · 19/11/2015 19:05

I don't think it's irrelevant at all. No transwoman is ever going to go through anything even approaching what your SIL did.

ShortcutButton · 19/11/2015 19:08

buffy I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to say you can't imagine, I meant 'one' can't imagine. I certainly can't imagine surviving that, myself Flowers

BuffytheScaryFeministBOO · 19/11/2015 19:09

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BuffytheScaryFeministBOO · 19/11/2015 19:10

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QueenStromba · 19/11/2015 19:11

I can imagine and I wish I couldn't.

slugseatlettuce · 19/11/2015 20:00

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