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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Transgenderism: the MNHQ position

389 replies

SarahMumsnet · 17/11/2015 11:12

Morning, everyone.

Given the number of threads about transgenderism on MN over recent weeks – and the fact that these threads tend to be strongly polarized – we thought it might be useful for us to come on and reiterate/clarify our position.

First and foremost, we’d like to remind everyone that Mumsnet is a site built on the values of tolerance, supportiveness and respect. We’re sure you’re all aware of our Talk guidelines by now, but for anyone new, do have a look: the key points in terms of transgenderism are, firstly, that we aim to keep intervention to a minimum and let the conversation flow, but that secondly, we will delete posts that we consider to be transphobic.

The obvious question, and one that’s been the subject of debate and a large number of reports over the last week, is what exactly we, as a site, consider to be transphobic. We’ve posted on this in the past – you can read the full post here, but in summary, we think it’s paramount to consider context, so rather than coming up with a “Mumsnet” definition of exactly what does and what doesn’t count as transphobia in our book, we think it’s sensible to ask users to adhere to principles of mutual respect and courtesy.

We think by and large this works well, but over recent weeks, some of you have been unhappy with the way in which we’ve dealt with the question of pronouns. Generally we delete posts in which people persistently refuse to refer to people by the pronoun (he/she; him/her) by which they’ve asked to be referred, out of respect for that individual’s wishes. Again, this isn’t something we’ve been rigid about; there are many instances (for example, on a recent thread about Jack Monroe) where we’ve felt that given the context/recency of the individual’s transition, deletion wasn’t appropriate - but broadly we tend to take the view that folk should refer to people by the name and pronoun those people choose.

There has been a question raised about whether or not we would delete the term “cis” when applied to posters on threads, on the grounds that some posters feel that being identified as a “ciswoman” rather than a woman is just as offensive as being addressed by the “wrong” pronoun.

We can see where these posters are coming from, so are of a mind to use the same rule of thumb when it comes to the term “cis” as we do for pronouns - i.e. we won’t necessarily delete every use of it, but if it’s applied pointedly to a poster who doesn’t identify as a ciswoman, we would delete that.

Transgenderism is a complex issue and one which has really only been discussed widely in the last couple of years. We are aware that there is a debate to be had about the differences between biological sex and gender, and how pronouns figure in this, and we’re glad that Mumsnet is a place where people feel able to have that debate.

But we are keen to make sure it takes place in a way that’s as civil and constructive as possible - and, frankly, in a way that means the threads on which it’s taking place don’t descend into a series of personal attacks which result in us having to delete lots of posts. We hope you’ll agree with us that the best way to achieve this is to start from a position of mutual respect - it’s only then that a productive discussion can take place. Essentially we’d hope that everyone could stick to criticising the argument(s), not the person.

We do think that by acknowledging posters’ rights to self-identification, we’re giving everyone the best chance of making their arguments heard.

Hope this makes sense. We’ll be keeping an eye on this thread, so do post your thoughts/questions below.

OP posts:
MythicalKings · 18/11/2015 16:41

Because nobody can tell women and transwomen apart? Come on.

Exactly, and anyone who thinks differently is either deluding themselves or not very observant.

BubsandMoo · 18/11/2015 16:47

Pressed send and then phone crashed! Meant to soften that post.

QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 16:49

Paris Lees is the only transwoman I can think of that I really wouldn't be able to tell by voice or physicality (opinions in the press on the other hand).

Maryz · 18/11/2015 16:53

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QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 17:05

A lot of transwomen are really obvious - there are some that still have full beards. I wouldn't ask them to leave though, I'd leave.

BubsandMoo · 18/11/2015 17:09

If one presumes that someone is a transwoman based on a masculine/androgynous appearance however then you risk falsely identifying women. I think at least twice on these recent threads there have been women who have experienced being asked to leave toilets etc because they don't appear feminine.

QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 17:13

If everyone could be trusted to use the appropriate facilities for their sex then that wouldn't happen.

Maryz · 18/11/2015 17:15

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Queenbean · 18/11/2015 17:16

I agree about the beard, and also if they have no plans to get rid of their penis I find that difficult to grasp how they can still identify as female

QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 17:25

In this brave new world a man can become a woman without so much as putting on some lipstick.

Egosumquisum · 18/11/2015 17:49

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QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 17:56

Not everyone agrees that post-ops should be in the women's facilities though. I would be triggered by someone who is obviously male being in a space where I am vulnerable and not expecting men to be and, as you say, I would have no way of knowing if they still had their penis.

Egosumquisum · 18/11/2015 17:59

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QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 18:01

If I couldn't tell that a person was male and they didn't attack me or leer at me then it would be fine. Due to my history of being raped in a bathroom, I would probably have a panic attack if I was somewhere on my own and someone identifiably male walked in.

Egosumquisum · 18/11/2015 18:05

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QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 18:19

So what we need is more unisex facilities (that aren't just changing the signs on the women's while leaving the men free to have their own). You'd be happier because you wouldn't be worrying that people have made you and it being potentially triggering for them or them drawing further attention to you. Women wouldn't have to worry that they could soon be sharing facilities with huge, hairy men that say they feel like a woman. Everyone's happy.

Egosumquisum · 18/11/2015 18:22

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ArcheryAnnie · 18/11/2015 18:32

I'm only on page two, I intend to read the whole thread, but in the meantime:

Transwomen find being called "male" offensive.

This from Ego is just factually incorrect. There's a growing group of transwomen who freely acknowledge that they are male, even after transition. This group of transwomen have been under repeated and sustained attack from trans extremists and their allies - threatened, doxxed, their employers contacted, and so on - just as gender-critical women have been.

This isn't a division of opinion with transwomen on one side and women on the other. There are both transwomen and women on every side of this argument. To claim otherwise is disengenuous.

OneMoreCasualty · 18/11/2015 18:36

And then people criticise transwomen for trying to look "feminine".

I haven't seen this on the thread or on MN before.

Great posts, Buffy.

Egosumquisum · 18/11/2015 18:41

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ArcheryAnnie · 18/11/2015 18:56

Then may I suggest, Ego, you don't post generalisations about what "transwomen find" if what you mean is "I find"?

I'd like to live my life, too, without having to deal with my safety, privacy and ability to politically organise as a woman under constant attack, but I am not being given that option.

On the thread in general - I've said this before, but Mumsnet has been way, way, way ahead of the game in allowing all sides of this discussion to take place. This is in contrast to many other sites, which impose groupthink on the posters. Even when a thread is full of what I consider to be absolute nonsense, I remain incredibly grateful to Mumsnet that they've given us this space. Do I agree with every pronouncement they've made on this? No, not at all, but I do think they've been very forward-thinking about it in general.

Egosumquisum · 18/11/2015 19:00

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ArcheryAnnie · 18/11/2015 19:23

Oh, certainly, Ego, when I see it and when I know them to be false and damaging.

I presume you will do the same about people posting false and damaging generalisations of gender-critical women and transwomen?

kua · 18/11/2015 19:24

Ego I've noticed that when you are queried on a comment you allude to negative posts that you have seen but of which you never reference.

Egosumquisum · 18/11/2015 19:32

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