Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Site stuff

Join our Innovation Panel to try new features early and help make Mumsnet better.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Transgenderism: the MNHQ position

389 replies

SarahMumsnet · 17/11/2015 11:12

Morning, everyone.

Given the number of threads about transgenderism on MN over recent weeks – and the fact that these threads tend to be strongly polarized – we thought it might be useful for us to come on and reiterate/clarify our position.

First and foremost, we’d like to remind everyone that Mumsnet is a site built on the values of tolerance, supportiveness and respect. We’re sure you’re all aware of our Talk guidelines by now, but for anyone new, do have a look: the key points in terms of transgenderism are, firstly, that we aim to keep intervention to a minimum and let the conversation flow, but that secondly, we will delete posts that we consider to be transphobic.

The obvious question, and one that’s been the subject of debate and a large number of reports over the last week, is what exactly we, as a site, consider to be transphobic. We’ve posted on this in the past – you can read the full post here, but in summary, we think it’s paramount to consider context, so rather than coming up with a “Mumsnet” definition of exactly what does and what doesn’t count as transphobia in our book, we think it’s sensible to ask users to adhere to principles of mutual respect and courtesy.

We think by and large this works well, but over recent weeks, some of you have been unhappy with the way in which we’ve dealt with the question of pronouns. Generally we delete posts in which people persistently refuse to refer to people by the pronoun (he/she; him/her) by which they’ve asked to be referred, out of respect for that individual’s wishes. Again, this isn’t something we’ve been rigid about; there are many instances (for example, on a recent thread about Jack Monroe) where we’ve felt that given the context/recency of the individual’s transition, deletion wasn’t appropriate - but broadly we tend to take the view that folk should refer to people by the name and pronoun those people choose.

There has been a question raised about whether or not we would delete the term “cis” when applied to posters on threads, on the grounds that some posters feel that being identified as a “ciswoman” rather than a woman is just as offensive as being addressed by the “wrong” pronoun.

We can see where these posters are coming from, so are of a mind to use the same rule of thumb when it comes to the term “cis” as we do for pronouns - i.e. we won’t necessarily delete every use of it, but if it’s applied pointedly to a poster who doesn’t identify as a ciswoman, we would delete that.

Transgenderism is a complex issue and one which has really only been discussed widely in the last couple of years. We are aware that there is a debate to be had about the differences between biological sex and gender, and how pronouns figure in this, and we’re glad that Mumsnet is a place where people feel able to have that debate.

But we are keen to make sure it takes place in a way that’s as civil and constructive as possible - and, frankly, in a way that means the threads on which it’s taking place don’t descend into a series of personal attacks which result in us having to delete lots of posts. We hope you’ll agree with us that the best way to achieve this is to start from a position of mutual respect - it’s only then that a productive discussion can take place. Essentially we’d hope that everyone could stick to criticising the argument(s), not the person.

We do think that by acknowledging posters’ rights to self-identification, we’re giving everyone the best chance of making their arguments heard.

Hope this makes sense. We’ll be keeping an eye on this thread, so do post your thoughts/questions below.

OP posts:
ArcheryAnnie · 19/11/2015 20:20

God, ShortcutButton, I'm so sorry your SiL went through that, and I am so sorry you were treated badly on here.

Thanks
Egosumquisum · 20/11/2015 16:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ShortcutButton · 20/11/2015 17:16

No ego it wasn't you. It was another poster, who gave a list of examples of transphobia on MN

I appreciate your apology. However, you did point other people at the post as you felt it explained transphobia on MN 'nicely'

Egosumquisum · 20/11/2015 17:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Egosumquisum · 20/11/2015 17:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Egosumquisum · 20/11/2015 17:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Egosumquisum · 20/11/2015 17:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace · 20/11/2015 17:50

Not to stoke the fire here, Ego, but you've just likened Shortcut's distress on the subject you've just said is not the same as genital surgery that is chosen and desired to your own tears at not getting the latter and people describing as something you don't think it is. I get that you want it and you haven't had it yet, but it's not really the same, is it?

Egosumquisum · 20/11/2015 17:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Egosumquisum · 20/11/2015 17:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ArcheryAnnie · 20/11/2015 17:57

A lot of us are deeply upset by much that are on these threads, Ego, not just you. It is really, really personal to all of us, because it affects all of us personally - and I freely acknowledge that this includes you.

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace · 20/11/2015 17:57

Is having the thing you want dismissed comparable to close relatives having suffered FGM, though?
You want it, you think it's a good idea, you don't think that what you want to happen to your genitals is mutilation. As you know, not everyone thinks about this as you do.
Whilst it's always nice when everyone agrees with you and sees the world as you do, if we all cried every time that doesn't happen, we'd never stop.

Egosumquisum · 20/11/2015 17:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Egosumquisum · 20/11/2015 17:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace · 20/11/2015 18:00

I don't give a monkey's if you have it or not!

'I don't need' people telling me I must think this, or I am doing that, or if I had such and such I wouldn't think in this way, on other boards/threads. It's frustrating to have your beliefs belittled, put down to envy, dismissed, etc. I get that it's going to happen though, and that I cannot expect everyone to see the world as I do.

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace · 20/11/2015 18:02

I know that, Ego - what I am talking about it your post on how it made you cry that people might thing of genital surgery as mutilation, and how your tears were the same as shortcut's distress. This bit - As for dismissal, how do you think I felt when you dismissed by real need for surgery as mutilation? I have feelings as well

Egosumquisum · 20/11/2015 18:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Egosumquisum · 20/11/2015 18:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Blistory · 20/11/2015 18:08

As an aside, I'm amazed at the differing attitudes by medical professionals towards patients and their needs.

I was refused the pill by a male doctor when I was 20 unless I had a smear.
I was refused sterlisation for 20 years by various male doctors because I obviously didn't know my own mind about wanting children. I was told my difficulties with my menstrual cycle were pretty much in my mind and that it was better to suffer because it was wrong to deny myself the option of children that I didn't want.

Obviously had I asked them to cut off a perfectly healthy part of my reproductive system, I'd have gotten a much quicker postive response.

Not a dig at anyone wanting GRS, just a dig at a medical system that decided that I was a silly woman who should just suck up the physical consequences of being a woman.

MaudGonneMad · 20/11/2015 18:10

There is a whole load of incredibly personal and abusive attacks on here that I get.

If you think you're being attacked and abused on this thread, you should report to MNHQ. I don't believe there have been any personal and abusive attacks; it just suits your argument to suggest that there have.

Egosumquisum · 20/11/2015 18:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Blistory · 20/11/2015 18:15

Like I said, wasn't aimed at anyone wanting GSR.

The difference is you're getting your surgery. I'm not after 20 sodding years unless I fund it myself. I don't begrudge your surgery for you but I do begrudge that women are constantly dismissed when it comes to reproductive health.

IKnowIAmButWhatAreYou · 20/11/2015 18:15

If someone told you that something you wanted doing to your body that you desperately needed was mutilation, how would that make you feel?

But that's the cry of every extreme body modder or person with "Body Integrity Identity Disorder", the sort of people that cut their thumbs off with a chisel in the basement because "it feels right".

I'm sorry , but I honestly don't see much difference between that and your conundrum.

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace · 20/11/2015 18:17

The only thing I've ever wanted to do to my body that anyone's objected to is piercing my ears (I know - lucky old cis me, never to be entirely at the mercy of a feeling that I got dropped into the wrong body etc etc) - and that's actually exactly how my dad referred to it!

And no, that's not something I 'desperately needed', obviously, but to me surgery that is 'desperately needed' would generally refer to some kind of life-saving operation.

But I'm not arguing about your feelings here - I don't doubt you are upset. I would probably suggest, respectfully, that you consider other people's views on that surgery as exactly what they are: other people's views. I just think it is crass to suggest that this - As for dismissal, how do you think I felt when you dismissed by real need [sic] for surgery as mutilation? I have feelings as well was a tad crass.

whatdoIget · 20/11/2015 18:19

If I felt 100% confident and happy with my decision, I don't think it would concern me if people thought I was about to mutilate myself. I certainly wouldn't keep coming back to the same place where it kept happening I don't think?!