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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Transgenderism: the MNHQ position

389 replies

SarahMumsnet · 17/11/2015 11:12

Morning, everyone.

Given the number of threads about transgenderism on MN over recent weeks – and the fact that these threads tend to be strongly polarized – we thought it might be useful for us to come on and reiterate/clarify our position.

First and foremost, we’d like to remind everyone that Mumsnet is a site built on the values of tolerance, supportiveness and respect. We’re sure you’re all aware of our Talk guidelines by now, but for anyone new, do have a look: the key points in terms of transgenderism are, firstly, that we aim to keep intervention to a minimum and let the conversation flow, but that secondly, we will delete posts that we consider to be transphobic.

The obvious question, and one that’s been the subject of debate and a large number of reports over the last week, is what exactly we, as a site, consider to be transphobic. We’ve posted on this in the past – you can read the full post here, but in summary, we think it’s paramount to consider context, so rather than coming up with a “Mumsnet” definition of exactly what does and what doesn’t count as transphobia in our book, we think it’s sensible to ask users to adhere to principles of mutual respect and courtesy.

We think by and large this works well, but over recent weeks, some of you have been unhappy with the way in which we’ve dealt with the question of pronouns. Generally we delete posts in which people persistently refuse to refer to people by the pronoun (he/she; him/her) by which they’ve asked to be referred, out of respect for that individual’s wishes. Again, this isn’t something we’ve been rigid about; there are many instances (for example, on a recent thread about Jack Monroe) where we’ve felt that given the context/recency of the individual’s transition, deletion wasn’t appropriate - but broadly we tend to take the view that folk should refer to people by the name and pronoun those people choose.

There has been a question raised about whether or not we would delete the term “cis” when applied to posters on threads, on the grounds that some posters feel that being identified as a “ciswoman” rather than a woman is just as offensive as being addressed by the “wrong” pronoun.

We can see where these posters are coming from, so are of a mind to use the same rule of thumb when it comes to the term “cis” as we do for pronouns - i.e. we won’t necessarily delete every use of it, but if it’s applied pointedly to a poster who doesn’t identify as a ciswoman, we would delete that.

Transgenderism is a complex issue and one which has really only been discussed widely in the last couple of years. We are aware that there is a debate to be had about the differences between biological sex and gender, and how pronouns figure in this, and we’re glad that Mumsnet is a place where people feel able to have that debate.

But we are keen to make sure it takes place in a way that’s as civil and constructive as possible - and, frankly, in a way that means the threads on which it’s taking place don’t descend into a series of personal attacks which result in us having to delete lots of posts. We hope you’ll agree with us that the best way to achieve this is to start from a position of mutual respect - it’s only then that a productive discussion can take place. Essentially we’d hope that everyone could stick to criticising the argument(s), not the person.

We do think that by acknowledging posters’ rights to self-identification, we’re giving everyone the best chance of making their arguments heard.

Hope this makes sense. We’ll be keeping an eye on this thread, so do post your thoughts/questions below.

OP posts:
CoteDAzur · 20/11/2015 19:03

"... comments on here by several posters have left me in tears and really upset... If someone told you that something you wanted doing to your body that you desperately needed was mutilation, how would that make you feel?"

It wouldn't make me feel much at all. People have various opinions on stuff I do or don't do in life. What perfect strangers say on an internet forum sometimes interests me, sometimes bores me, and sometimes makes me laugh, but it never upsets me. Words on the screen have certainly never made me cry a single tear.

Ego - You really really need professional help. People told you this before, very recently, and you agreed that you need to talk to someone who can help you. Can you please at least call a helpline? I am sure a free or at least low-cost solution can be found.

You are on every single MN thread about trans issues, saying that you are terribly upset, crying, and mentioning that many trans people commit suicide. Do you think this is normal behaviour on an internet forum? If you saw someone else post in this manner, I am sure that you would also be worried and would want to encourage her to seek help.

CoteDAzur · 20/11/2015 19:07

Ego - Please call Samaritans now.

Samaritans

Confidential support for people experiencing feelings of distress or despair.

Phone: 116 123 (free 24-hour helpline)

Website: www.samaritans.org.uk

Nibledbyducks · 20/11/2015 19:30

Ego, I hope that it's OK to ask you a question, I'm sorry if you're tired of answering this sort of thing.
I am a woman, I know this because I have female DNA and attributes. I have know idea what gender means, I've read about gender queer, and wouldn't call myself that because gender is just a set of rules contrived by society that I refuse to acknowledge. Do you think that gender exists, and what does it mean to you? Because I can't get the hang of letting someone else's rules impose so strongly that it would require surgery to conform. I think that there must be more to geing transgender than that because it doesn't make logical sense.

OneMoreCasualty · 20/11/2015 19:36

Nibbled

Some trans people feel very strongly that their body should be the sex opposite to its birth form. This is referred to as gender dysphoria but I think would more accurately be called sex dysphoria as it is very much based on the body.

Others are more focused on their emotional identification and feel less need to alter their bodies; to the extent that some refer to their penises as female penises.

My understanding from all of Ego's posts is that she is the former.

VashtaNerada · 20/11/2015 19:40

Shortcut - I've tried to stay away from these threads as I find them upsetting but just noticed you quoted me upthread and wanted to clarify. I'm devestated you thought my comment about FGM was minimising it. I meant the exact opposite and have worked on projects against FGM in the past so would never say anything like that.
The point I was making was that FGM is an utterly reprehensible practice, a million miles from the surgery my trans friends (male and female) have willingly undertaken and has made them much happier people. I'm really sorry if that wasn't clear.

VashtaNerada · 20/11/2015 19:42

For anyone not aware, today is trans day of remembrance, a day to remember those trans people who have been killed or taken their own life in the last year. I really don't want to debate the issues today so will try to avoid these threads but please don't take my absence as not wanting to engage.

MultishirkingAgain · 20/11/2015 20:11

I don't begrudge your surgery for you but I do begrudge that women are constantly dismissed when it comes to reproductive health

Yes, and then we have the ridiculous claim that campaigning around reproductive health should be centred on transwomen's "infertility."

Heebiejeebie · 20/11/2015 21:30

I think it is unlikely that the road to wellbeing is paved with amputated body parts.

HoneyDragon · 20/11/2015 23:44

MNHQ wanted this thread to help them find there way as moderators, I can see why they are struggling as threads inevitably end up like this, and personally feel for MNHQ for once. They are trying to accomadate everyone's needs, we should acknowledge that at least on this thread.

SmashingTurnips · 21/11/2015 08:40

I think MNHQ are doing an amazing job.

There are not many places at the moment on the internet (other than gender critical blogs) where gender critical comments are left to stand. I suspect that that may also have quite a lot to do with MN's demographic; mostly women, lots of them mothers and lots of us not in the first flush of youth. Therefore we do not have too many young trendy choice feminists insisting that we go along with the current trend of suspending critical thinking in the area of gender, neither do we have hordes of liberal men who instinctively see genderism as a new way to oppress women whilst remaining smugly right-on. And this means that we do not have too many posters insisting that MN shut down female centric discussions of transgenderism and its ramifications for girls and women.

All the while MNHQ is also trying hard to make sure that individual posters are not attacked/insulted/silenced/bullied/etc and they can ask for help and support if they want to. Help and support that the overwhelming majority of MNers give willingly and generously.

The fact that our objections to being called 'cis' have been listened to is something to be proud of - it is a quite an act of defiance in these times of gender madness.

ShortcutButton · 21/11/2015 08:53

Are you telling us off honey?

BeyondThirty · 21/11/2015 08:54

Agree, smashing :)

HermioneWeasley · 21/11/2015 08:59

Agree smashing MN is a haven of sensible thinking in what feels like a world gone mad.

Did you see the "society gives us no cultural narrative to understand male pregnancy" blog the other day? Madness.

HoneyDragon · 21/11/2015 09:16

No not telling anyone one off at all. If anyone one loves a good tangent it's me.

I'm trying to tactfully suggest that it would be nice if this thread didn't go the same way as a lot of others and end up very personal. I normally wouldn't dare for fear of then getting put on posters shit lists but this is site stuff, and MNHQ have said they are reading the thread for our feedback and suggestions. I think people need to to be able to say freely how they'd like to see things addressed on this site to move forward iyswim ?

CoteDAzur · 21/11/2015 09:47

What Smashing said. I don't read blogs and as far as I can see, MN is one of the last bastions of critical thinking where women can question transactivist dogma and voice concern about how changes in legislation and even language are are already affecting the lives of women everywhere.

Thank you MNHQ Flowers

KeepitDown · 21/11/2015 10:15

I'm very grateful to Mumsnet too, for the discussion that they do allow.

However, I've just noticed that many of my posts regarding transwomen in female prisons have been deleted. I cannot think of any reason why other than use of the phrase "transwomen are male".

I was not using it to be insulting or inflammatory. I was using it because it is the actual crux of my argument as to why it is inappropriate to put transwomen in female prisons.

If I can't make reference to the biological reality, then how can I advance the argument? It feels like having my hands tied.

Fintan · 21/11/2015 11:25

I saw your posts on that thread Keep and I'm appalled that they've been deleted.

I think that MN is making its stance on this quite clear. Women who post on this subject will be silenced for speaking the truth.

SmashingTurnips · 21/11/2015 11:34

Woah I missed that thread. After just having said I think HQ do a great job i would be shocked if a poster was deleted for saying that transwomen (general) are male. If that has happened then I would appreciate HQ explaining why.

HermioneWeasley · 21/11/2015 11:40

I didn't see those deletions- that's outrageous

CrayonShavings · 21/11/2015 11:42

I've been glued to this thread so also didn't notice deletions.

Seriously MNHQ? I think we need some further clarification here.

OneMoreCasualty · 21/11/2015 12:09

Mnhq, can you clarify? Thanks.

CoteDAzur · 21/11/2015 13:46

MNHQ don't delete for "transwomen are male". See my post below from downthread:

18/11/2015 21:21 CoteDAzur

"To read about Lila Perry or Tara Hudson and then not be allowed to say 'that person is male' is a massive, dangerous headfuck. Obviously misgendering is sometimes done just to be rude about someone but sometimes there is an important reason for not going along with someone's wishes to be referred to as female."

That is not misgendering, though.

Misgendering is when a transwoman wishes to be referred to as "she" and people keep calling her "he".

Saying that a transwoman is male is not misgendering. It is a statement of fact. Female/male are about sex, not gender. They are biological definitions that refer to belonging to the sex that can make eggs/ova and bear young, or the sex that can make sperm.

jorahmormont · 21/11/2015 14:06

I think that everyday feminism link killed a lot of my brain cells. Why is it cissexist to show people baby photos? What a load of bollocks.

KeepitDown · 21/11/2015 14:14

They haven't deleted all my posts, and some of the ones still standing do say transwomen are male, so I can't make out why they've deleted many of the others.

Here is one that was deleted (I can be seen referring to it a few posts later in order to correct my typo - "less" should have been "greater":

" Gruntled
I'm talking about the safety of females, which manifestly is much less in female prisons (that is, prisons without male prisoners). Transwomen are male."

Why was that deleted??? Confused

Fintan · 21/11/2015 14:19

HQ isn't always consistent when it comes to deletions, in my experience at least.
I'll be very interested to read the reasons for those deletions.

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