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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Transgenderism: the MNHQ position

389 replies

SarahMumsnet · 17/11/2015 11:12

Morning, everyone.

Given the number of threads about transgenderism on MN over recent weeks – and the fact that these threads tend to be strongly polarized – we thought it might be useful for us to come on and reiterate/clarify our position.

First and foremost, we’d like to remind everyone that Mumsnet is a site built on the values of tolerance, supportiveness and respect. We’re sure you’re all aware of our Talk guidelines by now, but for anyone new, do have a look: the key points in terms of transgenderism are, firstly, that we aim to keep intervention to a minimum and let the conversation flow, but that secondly, we will delete posts that we consider to be transphobic.

The obvious question, and one that’s been the subject of debate and a large number of reports over the last week, is what exactly we, as a site, consider to be transphobic. We’ve posted on this in the past – you can read the full post here, but in summary, we think it’s paramount to consider context, so rather than coming up with a “Mumsnet” definition of exactly what does and what doesn’t count as transphobia in our book, we think it’s sensible to ask users to adhere to principles of mutual respect and courtesy.

We think by and large this works well, but over recent weeks, some of you have been unhappy with the way in which we’ve dealt with the question of pronouns. Generally we delete posts in which people persistently refuse to refer to people by the pronoun (he/she; him/her) by which they’ve asked to be referred, out of respect for that individual’s wishes. Again, this isn’t something we’ve been rigid about; there are many instances (for example, on a recent thread about Jack Monroe) where we’ve felt that given the context/recency of the individual’s transition, deletion wasn’t appropriate - but broadly we tend to take the view that folk should refer to people by the name and pronoun those people choose.

There has been a question raised about whether or not we would delete the term “cis” when applied to posters on threads, on the grounds that some posters feel that being identified as a “ciswoman” rather than a woman is just as offensive as being addressed by the “wrong” pronoun.

We can see where these posters are coming from, so are of a mind to use the same rule of thumb when it comes to the term “cis” as we do for pronouns - i.e. we won’t necessarily delete every use of it, but if it’s applied pointedly to a poster who doesn’t identify as a ciswoman, we would delete that.

Transgenderism is a complex issue and one which has really only been discussed widely in the last couple of years. We are aware that there is a debate to be had about the differences between biological sex and gender, and how pronouns figure in this, and we’re glad that Mumsnet is a place where people feel able to have that debate.

But we are keen to make sure it takes place in a way that’s as civil and constructive as possible - and, frankly, in a way that means the threads on which it’s taking place don’t descend into a series of personal attacks which result in us having to delete lots of posts. We hope you’ll agree with us that the best way to achieve this is to start from a position of mutual respect - it’s only then that a productive discussion can take place. Essentially we’d hope that everyone could stick to criticising the argument(s), not the person.

We do think that by acknowledging posters’ rights to self-identification, we’re giving everyone the best chance of making their arguments heard.

Hope this makes sense. We’ll be keeping an eye on this thread, so do post your thoughts/questions below.

OP posts:
QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 19:34

You're confusing femininity with pornified caricature of femininity.

Egosumquisum · 18/11/2015 19:36

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Egosumquisum · 18/11/2015 19:38

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TracyBarlow · 18/11/2015 19:43

May I ask a technical question please? Is cis pronounced with a hard 'c' or a soft 'c'. I've never heard it outside of MN, I don't think.

QueenStromba · 18/11/2015 19:52

Sounds like sis.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 18/11/2015 20:20

I agree that deliberate misgendering of people posting on MN should be deleted as a personal attack, whether he / she or cis.

I'm not so sure that should automatically extend to people in the public eye. It's vitally important for women's safety and wellbeing that we are able to identify male people, especially when they are campaigning to access female spaces. To read about Lila Perry or Tara Hudson and then not be allowed to say 'that person is male' is a massive, dangerous headfuck. Obviously misgendering is sometimes done just to be rude about someone but sometimes there is an important reason for not going along with someone's wishes to be referred to as female. I would hope MNHQ would use their judgement in this area and not just delete every instance of misgendering.

One of the deletions on a recent thread was something like 'a human with a penis is not female'. If things like that are being deleted it becomes very hard to have these discussions.

HermioneWeasley · 18/11/2015 20:33

plenty I agree.

Saying that a TW is male is a fact - we shouldn't be deleted for stating facts. I will use people's preferred pronouns and names, but I won't pretend black is white.

Obviously when engaging with individuals I will try to avoid offence, but ultimately if a TW asked me straight out "do you think I am really a man/male" I wouldn't lie.

"Woman" is not a feeling it an identity, it is a biological reality. I'm on day one of a heavy period. I had to wipe blood off the cubicle floor at work today as its so heavy - just blood and clots falling out of me. That's one of the realities of being a woman.

FloraFox · 18/11/2015 20:43

I was hoping MNHQ might comment on deletions of "penis is male" comments. I can tolerate the misgendering rule even though I don't agree with it but being unable to state that a person with a person is a man is a step too far.

In all these discussions it is clear there is no point in giving any ground to transactivists. Simply calling a transpeep "she" escalates quickly to "transwomen are women, bigot, and lesbians who don't want dick are bigoted vagina-fetishists".

slugseatlettuce · 18/11/2015 20:49

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CoteDAzur · 18/11/2015 21:21

"To read about Lila Perry or Tara Hudson and then not be allowed to say 'that person is male' is a massive, dangerous headfuck. Obviously misgendering is sometimes done just to be rude about someone but sometimes there is an important reason for not going along with someone's wishes to be referred to as female."

That is not misgendering, though.

Misgendering is when a transwoman wishes to be referred to as "she" and people keep calling her "he".

Saying that a transwoman is male is not misgendering. It is a statement of fact. Female/male are about sex, not gender. They are biological definitions that refer to belonging to the sex that can make eggs/ova and bear young, or the sex that can make sperm.

HermioneWeasley · 18/11/2015 21:31

flora have MNHQ deleted "penis is male" comments? That's mad.

Ubik1 · 18/11/2015 21:53

I was just reflecting on what an utter nightmare it must be moderating these threads Confused

Hullygully · 19/11/2015 09:43

It all seems quite simple to me.

It's a shame if someone feels they are in the "wrong body," or wants to chop their limbs off, or starve themselves to death et al other dysphorias, but IF YOU HAVE A PENIS YOU ARE NOT A WOMAN.

Indeed, even if you chop it off and have a pretend vagina, YOU ARE NOT A WOMAN.

I will call you a "GenderWoman" in so far as you are drawn to a construct, but that's as far as it goes.

Dysphorics (is that a word?) need to create a new way and space and not attempt to colonise our hard won space and tell us what we are and what we can and cannot say to suit their agenda.

fusionconfusion · 19/11/2015 09:59

I was explaining all of this to my husband last night. We have three boys. It scares me that they are growing up in a world where this kind of shit is even possible..

One of mine loves (among many other things) pink sparkly shit and My Little Pony. He's nearly 7. The idea that if society goes with the notion that transgenderism-is-a-real-thing-in-the-world this could logically and feasibly be shaped into a story of him being trapped in the "wrong body" requiring therapy and perhaps even surgery is just.. terrifying.

The idea my small boy, instead of just being allowed to be a BOY who loves pink sparkly shit and My Little Pony would be influenced by a societal agenda to make gender such a solid, immutable, biological "reality", complete with narratives about "cislesbians" being bigoted for not accepting the penis can be "female"..

It's a dystopian headfuck, isn't it?

CoteDAzur · 19/11/2015 10:19

Yes, a dystopian headfuck is exactly what it is.

This sort of schizophrenic manner of thinking where males are women ("Transwomen are women, period!") and one can be a woman AND a man according to how they feel on a given day ("genderfluid") is exactly the sort of Doublethink that George Orwell warned us about in 1984: "Doublethink is a form of mental discipline whose goal, desirable and necessary to all Party members, is to be able to believe two contradictory truths at the same time."

We are already deep into Orwell's vision of Newspeak - the very word 'woman' is now impossible to define, if you reject its dictionary definition adult human female and buy into the concept that a woman is anyone who feels like a woman, including functional males in their 60s who have had no problem fathering children the old-fashioned way for decades.

And if we can't define 'woman' based on our shared biology, then we can't talk about the social and biological issues caused by that shared biology - transwomen don't have periods, have FGM, or need birth control pills so it is trans-exclusionary and transphobic to say these are women's issues.

Quoting from 1984: "Don't you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end, we shall make thought crime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it."

Orwell would have weeped to see his vision come real so perfectly.

BeyondThirty · 19/11/2015 10:30

:( cote

Fusion, i have a boy with 'girls interests' too, i agree about the worry that he will be persuaded he is in fact 'female'. As someone who can be a tad suggestible myself, i am honestly convinced that if i had been young now, i would have been convinced i am in fact 'male'.

whatdoIget · 19/11/2015 11:02

Fucking hell. Reading that quote from 1984 has chilled me. It's terrifying Sad

HoneyDragon · 19/11/2015 12:40

Liking pink sparkly shit means you have excellent taste, not a gender.

Ds gets it, everything where you fill in your sex at his school is labelled gender. We've discussed feminism, gender and sex since he was teeny.

He's twelve, he understands to the point that when his tie was off (legit reason) and a teacher questioned its absence he replied

"I'm feeling more She than He todaySir, so opted for trousers and no tie" (uniform policy is tie compulsory for boys but not girls).

He's twelve.

FloraFox · 19/11/2015 12:47

That is an excellent quote from Orwell. Do these new feminists not realise that to fight oppression you must first name it? If we have no words to talk about the class of people who actually or potentially bear children, we can't identify an oppressor class or the things that are done to the oppressed class. Girl babies are not aborted or murdered because they like pink sparkly shit and girl children do not have their genitals mutilated based on their feelings of identity. All oppression of women (those people who potentially or actually bear children) stems from exploitation of women's sexual and reproductive labour and the associated domestic labour. Without the words to name and analyze this, there is no feminism. No way to pull together the things that happen to that group of people and change then.

BuffytheScaryFeministBOO · 19/11/2015 12:56

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BuffytheScaryFeministBOO · 19/11/2015 12:59

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BuffytheScaryFeministBOO · 19/11/2015 13:00

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BuffytheScaryFeministBOO · 19/11/2015 13:00

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RomiiRoo · 19/11/2015 13:22

I don't know, at this rate, feminism might be doomed.

The argument - at least what I have read - seems to be against separate boards for trans people and support, for valid consciousness raising reasons on what the trans issues actually mean for women born as women experiencing discrimination, reproductive issues, gender based violence, disproportionate poverty on a daily basis. Why have we got separate boards for feminism then?

To go back to the earlier discussion, IRL this already matters. It matters - for example - when gender equality discussion in the workplace becomes about trans issues, rather than childcare or parental leave (as is happening where I work); when there are decisions to be made about whether to fund surgery for gender dysphoria or breast cancer; whether really what the trans debate is doing is reinforcing existing hierarchies because of the visual and vocal identification of trans* activists with a particular male and commercialised construct of femininity - not what it actually means to be a woman in lived experience from birth onwards.

I'm tired of actual, real life male privilege, and trans*women and activists seem to want to assert new forms of that privilege. As noted already, same old story, different words.

HoneyDragon · 19/11/2015 14:47

It's a unique activism from some

Someone goes "I'm a woman for this day forward"

People go "okay that's cool"

Someone goes "it's hard, I'm finding it hard. It's women's fault I'm finding it hard"

And people buy into this theory it must be true rather than misogyny at play, yet again.