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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

833 replies

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 10:10

Hello

There have been so many threads about this over the past few days, and so many divergent points of view - and so much upset - that we'd really like to have the discussion in one place rather than in many different threads all over the boards.

For those who haven't heard yet: we are actively reviewing our policy about threads regarding suicidal feelings and suicidal intent. We are seeking expert input from outside organisations including the Samaritans. Once we have that we will come back and have a further discussion with MNers about the way forward.

We'll be here to talk on the thread throughout the day, but do please note that we WILL delete troll-hunting posts for all the obvious reasons. So PLEASE do not use this thread to make insinuations about identifiable posters - keep it general please.

Re: Wombat: we understand that some reporters had concerns, but at the same time this poster had been around for years with a very consistent posting history. We absolutely do not have any concrete reason to disbelieve her. However, her thread had been immensely upsetting and triggering for many users, and has prompted a site-wide discussion about how we handle these threads. Once her husband had posted that she was at home with him and under the care of RL professionals it really seemed best all round to delete the thread.

We contacted Wombat at the time to explain our deletion and we still feel that for many very good reasons this is best sorted out off-board between us and her; we've asked her again to reply to our email and we will happily take it from there.

We also think that this whole case is a very good illustration of why we have no-trollhunting rules. We understand that some of you find them frustrating, but for every correct troll-call, there's an incorrect one. Being called a troll in public when you're giving an honest account of deeply upsetting real-life circumstances can be devastating for people.

Equally, we do 'get' that there are a lot posters and threads at the moment that seem deeply suspicious. We are on the front foot with this and have been being pretty pro-active at closing things down when they are reported to us and when we can see that things aren't adding up, particularly if they are new users.

So we need you to keep reporting and NOT break troll-hunting rules on the boards unless MNHQ itself has said publicly that we are confident that someone was a deliberate trouble-maker.

The namechange/sock-puppeting thing is extremely easy for us to spot when it's reported. It's not a judgement call - it's black and white and it's the work of a moment for us to spot it and deal with it.

OP posts:
ScaryZ · 28/10/2014 22:18

It's posts like Miscellaneous's that really make me despair.

"troll hunting does so much damage"

I think the only think MN can do to discourage trolls is to stop this focussing on troll-hunting. They could start by acknowledging that the many posters who point out trolling by reporting and who try to prevent too many innocent bystanders being drawn into threads (again by reporting, or sometimes posting a subtle warning on thread), aren't troll hunting. They aren't wandering around the board trying to catch people out, trying to pick holes in poster's stories, trying to find "trolls". They are normal users of mn who recognise the same stories appearing over and over again, with the same drama and often the same posters.

I'm not talking about shouting "bollocks" on thread. I'm talking about seeing the trolls drawing people in, and getting frustrated at threads staying up for days longer than they should.

What does damage to MN is the trolls. And posters are no longer allowed to "arify confusions and errors, ask searching questions and do the odd 'reported'" - that is against guidelines.

If there were no trolls, firstly no-one would see any, because they wouldn't be there, and secondly genuine posters could post knowing that their stories wouldn't be questioned, because there would be no trolling.

I defy anyone who has been on MN more than a couple of years to honestly state that there isn't a massive troll problem on here. And if they genuinely believe that there is no trolling or that trolls do no harm, then they are either naive, or prone to a bit of trolling themselves.

Upandatem · 28/10/2014 22:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

2shoeprintsintheblood · 28/10/2014 22:25

i think all this hatred of troll "hunting" is plain daft.
the hurt is caused by trolls is what should be discussed and how that can be stopped.
seeing people telling personal tales and giving support, and the the thread going, cos it is another troll, that is what will damage MN.
I know on a small level I will never reach out as I did the other day.
I bet I am not alone.
yet all mn hq seems to care about is the people who say troll,
allowing a thread that ia made up to stand, whilst running this thread imo is a a bad call. joke threads can be fun, but not if they are pretending to be serious.
slagging of people who call troll, just feeds the trolls.

LittleBearPad · 28/10/2014 22:30

Posters should be allowed to ask clarifying questions, any real poster would surely answer if they think they'll get better advice by making things clearer. Snide comments like 'is this your first post OP?' and bridge-dweller comments are just obnoxious.

YeGodsAndLittleFishes · 29/10/2014 07:56

Yes, clarifying questions is one thing, but asking for personal information which the OP doesn't want to share online can result in the OP feeling unsupported and rejected or making stuff up as a way round the obstacles being thrown at them. In other words, sometimes it is these questions themselves which are the causes for the problems on some of these threads!

PuddingandPie1 · 29/10/2014 08:13

The troll hunters seeing their level of support slipping away now seem to be claiming that anybody who disagrees with their point of view is "prone to a bit of trolling themselves" and/or "slagging of people who call troll just feeds the trolls".

Of course neither is true - both trolls and troll hunters want to ignore the Mumsnet rules and they feed off each other to the detriment of the vast majority of users.

ExtraWickedDevil · 29/10/2014 08:24

I agree there needs to be a fast and effective response to reports 24/7. After all trolls don't clock off at 5, and MNHQ need to be consistent if they wish to be respected.

But I wonder if there could also be a way to prevent PMs being sent to an OP where a thread is bring questioned? Other posters have suggested that threads are locked while MNHQ checks things out, and I would support this idea so long as posters can't PM the OP and possibly risk being drawn in to a troll's fantasy?

TerribleMother · 29/10/2014 09:30

My god, reading this thread is so frustrating. It would appear that their is either a lot of genuine misunderstandings going on, or a lot of disingenuous posting.

The people who are against troll 'hunters', (and mnhq for that matter if I'm reading correctly), arent claiming that (1) trolls don't exist (2) trolls don't cause hurt or damage (3) everyone should categorically believe everything that's posted (4) no one should be allowed to ask any clarifying question, no matter how obvious the mistake/inconsistency (5) anyone who asks a question is immediately a troll hunter (5a) anyone who asks a question and is immediately a troll hunter is also the devil incarnate.

What, in actual fact seems to be being said and totally missed or deliberately ignored, is that it's no one but mnhq's job to ultimately decide that a poster/thread is dodgy or to warn other posters of the fact, it's perfectly ok to clarify something that seems inconsistent (different dates in different posts etc), but in a 'sorry, have I missed something', rather than in a 'hmmm I smell bullshit' kind of way, and finally, if the thread is screaming 'HAIRY HANDED FUCKING TROLL' at you, then the rules are simple:- report, and step away.

Some posters just don't seem to be able to accept this and seem hell bent on accusing mnhq and some posters of being some kind of troll appreciation society.

While I can understand the upset that the overnight 'watch' does appear inadequate, there doesn't seem to be any reason other than bloody mindedness for refusal to adhere to the rules.

I'm sorry if this post has been ridiculously ranty but reading this thread is enough to make a saint swear.

TerribleMother · 29/10/2014 09:32

And now look what you've all made me do! I've mixed up a their for a there, which is in my book, a cardinal sin!! BlushGrin

WannaBe · 29/10/2014 09:36

The calling of inconsistencies on threads wouldn’t be deemed so much of an issue if it wasn’t for the fact that there are so many threads with inconsistencies on them.

Basically, there wouldn’t be “troll hunters” if there weren’t trolls. It’s not the people who out these trolls that is the issue – it’s the fact that the trolls are there in the first place. What exactly is it that people are failing to see about that?

TerribleMother · 29/10/2014 09:42

I don't think anyone's denying that there couldn't be troll hunters without trolls, that's just a fact. People are saying that just because there are trolls, doesn't mean there has to be troll hunters.

TerribleMother · 29/10/2014 09:43

*have

I really should apologise for my grammar on this thread, it's been effin shocking! GrinConfused

RowanMumsnet · 29/10/2014 10:08

Morning all

@LittleBearPad

Posters should be allowed to ask clarifying questions, any real poster would surely answer if they think they'll get better advice by making things clearer. Snide comments like 'is this your first post OP?' and bridge-dweller comments are just obnoxious.

Yes, this, basically. It's totally fine to say 'sorry, maybe I've misunderstood but xx and yy about your story don't seem to make sense'.

What's not fine is if this seems to be straying into a deliberate attempt to heavily imply disbelief/trolling while just about staying on the right side of the rules.

Of course it's not always obvious which is happening, which is where the headaches can come in from MNHQ's POV.

Equally, there can be an innocent explanation for xx and yy not quite adding up - people can disguise details to remain anonymous; the OP may not have perfectly understood a piece of information herself.

OP posts:
Modestine · 29/10/2014 10:49

The comments like "Interesting first post, OP" are actually sounding the horn for a hunt. Plus comments are simultaneously being made on other threads to the tune of "There's one in Relationships right now" which all add to the numbers involved in the hunt. "Hunt" is the right word for it, including the fact that hunters get caught up in the hunt, and really don't care what the quarry is. Even if it's a pet kitten, not a fox, it will have a bloody death.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 29/10/2014 11:59

People are saying that just because there are trolls, doesn't mean there has to be troll hunters.

This! ^

FrontForward · 29/10/2014 12:17

Good post TerribleMother.

Pagwatch · 29/10/2014 12:24

I don't troll hunt but I am wondering if the problem is perceived to be bigger than it is if questions about an op are interpreted as troll hunting?

If an op makes no sense or if the op contradicts themselves on an important point then I will ask them to clarify. If my post ( and possibly other) sit along side an 'interesting first post Hmm' then that might look like troll hunting when it predominantly isn't.

People have to be able to ask questions. When I asked a question a while ago I was accused of implying stuff and being pissy. I'd actually asked a perfectly reasonable question.

It's the proliferation of trolls that is causing the problem. The troll hunting is a by product. It's fucking tedious that half the threads are bollocks or posters trying to figure out if they are bollocks.

FrontForward · 29/10/2014 12:32

I don't regard most questions as troll hunting at all. There are some OPs that need clarifying.

I think troll hunters generally need readers to know that they suspect trollery so they make their questioning obviously sarcastic/pedantic or focused on one tiny little detail that often is irrelevant to the bigger picture. It can be like watching a TV version of a court room with the prosecutor trying to trip up the witness.

FrontForward · 29/10/2014 12:33

There's usually a nudge nudge wink wink element to the troll hunting.

Corestrategy · 29/10/2014 12:59

I posted on a thread yesterday and the thread was deleted. Mumsnet said something like they had doubts about the poster. Some people on the thread had accused the OP of being goady. All the OP had done was ask why some single parents seemed to have more money than her. People then thought she was benefit bashing. So what? Why can't people have a discussion even if it is controversial?

Pagwatch · 29/10/2014 13:16

I wasn't saying it was the same thing. In fact I think I was pretty clear about that.

I was saying that a combination of Hmm posts alongside genuine questions can create the impression that there is more of an issue than there actually is.

The fact that on this thread it seems one is perceived immediately as picking a side isn't really helping. The whole issue is difficult. Shockingly I can actually see both sides.

JustScreamNobHurts · 29/10/2014 14:08

The only observation I have is that of late if you query the op, directly, with a legitimate question than some posters will strike out of nowhere telling you to back off! and support the op. And will openly accuse a poster of troll hunting.

If you accuse a poster of troll hunting than people start looking for the troll.

The logical and correct procedure is of course to report and trolling or troll hunting if you suspect or indeed anything you think may be worth looking at which leads back to square one.

MNHQ simply don't appear to have the number of bodies to cope with the number of reports or the right HQers in at peak times for useage.

So then people decide reporting doesn't work and the merry troll, troll hunter, troll hunter shamers dance goes on and on and on.

RowanMumsnet · 29/10/2014 14:27

@Corestrategy

I posted on a thread yesterday and the thread was deleted. Mumsnet said something like they had doubts about the poster. Some people on the thread had accused the OP of being goady. All the OP had done was ask why some single parents seemed to have more money than her. People then thought she was benefit bashing. So what? Why can't people have a discussion even if it is controversial?

It's not about the topic - in that case it was because the OP had a history of starting threads on hot-button topics, and also various things that we can see behind the scenes linked her to previously banned accounts.

OP posts:
RowanMumsnet · 29/10/2014 14:30

@JustScreamNobHurts

MNHQ simply don't appear to have the number of bodies to cope with the number of reports or the right HQers in at peak times for useage.

That's not how we see it tbh (though we wouldn't would we Grin). Although we're busy, we very rarely overwhelmed - usually only when something ridiculous (like Heartbleed) happens. Most days/evenings we clear almost everything that's been reported to us, and the Night Watch deal with egregious trolling and spamming overnight.

OP posts:
JustScreamNobHurts · 29/10/2014 14:43

Ahem, note I did put appear Wink

Obviously it's not unusual for you to start responses with "sorry for the delay..."

From the user side, it can look like nothing's happening. Ancient old pain in the arse posters like me know that something probably is happening and leave it, hoping for the best. But not everyone does that.

If I'm really dubious and I think someone is over investing I might drop a pm going "are you 100% confident in giving the op these details about your life" because they can
A) ignore it
B)tell me to fuck off
C)go, Oooh maybe I font want to share, cheers for that

I know technically that could be construed as troll hunting, but it's not, the op is what it is. MNHQ are off doing something, and I'd rather say something quietly than nothing at all.