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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Fathers 4 Justice and their recent attacks on Mumsnet

999 replies

JustineMumsnet · 17/03/2012 09:28

Some of you may have noticed that a group called Fathers 4 Justice has been saying some pretty unpleasant things about us over the last couple of weeks. In an 'advert' which appeared first on Facebook and then in yesterday's edition of the I, the group claims Mumsnet 'promotes gender hatred', and labels 'men and boys as rapists, paedophiles and wife beaters'. It calls on advertisers to suspend advertising on Mumsnet.

Most people, I'm quite sure, will see the adverts and the 'campaign' behind them for precisely what they are: a naked attempt to court publicity by a group of people who for whatever reason appear to have tired of climbing cranes in superhero outfits. (And, just coincidentally, in the run up to Mothers' Day). In fact it feels a bit like having a particularly irritating toddler repeatedly prodding you with a stick to get some attention.

By and large it seemed most sensible to ignore them, not least because we've had our hands quite full with stuff that actually matters, like Mumsnet's 'We believe you' campaign to dispel rape myths.

But since Fathers 4 Justice appear to have attracted some grown ups' attention, we thought we should tell you a bit about the background to this attack, the truth behind their allegations, and how they are trying to bully us and other organisations. Here are 10 things you should know.

  1. On March 3rd a Mumsnet user started a conversation about a poster campaign being touted on Mumsnet's Facebook wall by Fathers 4 Justice, and the fact that Fathers 4 Justice was bombarding a number of sites with this troubling image.
  1. A conversation then ensued on Mumsnet about Fathers 4 Justice and their tactics which some members of Fathers 4 Justice joined. Some Mumsnetters said some pretty harsh things.
  1. We deleted a number of posts that broke our forum guidelines regarding personal attacks. In total we deleted 70 posts from the thread which went on over the next few days and reached 1000 posts in total. 60 were posts were made by regular Mumsnet members, ten or so by new joiners from Fathers 4 Justice. Our community managers reminded users to follow forum guidelines on nine separate occasions and at least one prolific Mumsnetter left the site in protest at our deletion policy.
  1. On March 7th and March 8th MNHQ received a series of emails from the Campaign Director of Fathers 4 Justice containing threats of legal action and a threat to contact our advertisers. At the same time comments on the Fathers 4 Justice Facebook page describing Mumsnetters as 'barking mad harridans', 'weird sex obsessed paranoid perverts' and 'child abusing contact blockers' were left unmoderated. As were comments that described me variously as a 'dried up old hag', 'an evil woman' and having an 'IQ that would return a negative score'.
  1. On March 11th Fathers 4 Justice posted another attack ad this time accusing M&S of 'sponsoring hateful, bigoted and prejudiced comments about men and boys on Mumsnet' and demanding that M&S withdraw all advertising on Mumsnet or face a boycott. It accused the company of 'serving up gender hatred for Mother's Day'.
  1. Other organisations have experienced similar bullying tactics. In recent weeks Fathers 4 Justice have targeted the lone parents' support charity, Gingerbread, jamming up its telephone helplines. Senior NGO staff have told us they felt too intimidated to speak out against them.
  1. The suggestion that Mumsnet encourages gender hatred would be funny if it were not so offensive - and plain silly. The central aim of Mumsnet is to make parents' (mothers' and fathers') lives easier. There are many and varied opinions on the site and no one Mumsnet party line prevails, save for the view that we respect diverse opinion. We do not pre-moderate or vet comments made to our discussion boards of which there are around 30 000 every day. Men are and always have been extremely welcome on Mumsnet - we have a Dadsnet forum for Dads to talk directly with other men should they wish. We estimate that around 5-10% of our 2 million odd monthly users are men.

Of course you can always find plenty of Mumsnetters whinging about their male partners' shortcomings - more than there are whinging about their female partners' shortcomings - but generalisations are swiftly pounced on and we do not tolerate gender hatred, or any other kind of hatred for that matter (save maybe hatred of Fruitshoots). We encourage people to be civil and supportive and, in the main, most people are.

  1. Fathers 4 Justice campaigns for fathers to have access to their children following separation or divorce. Its founder, Matt O'Connor, says parents have 'fewer rights than a terrorist'. The organisation was temporarily disbanded in 2006 after it emerged that some of its members had plotted to kidnap Tony Blair's son Leo. Fathers 4 Justice boasts that it is 'the most controversial and high profile pressure group of modern times' but it has struggled to win public attention since abandoning its eye-catching tactic of scaling tall structures in superhero costumes. In recent weeks it has targeted Cafcass, the body responsible for protecting the rights of children in court proceedings, Gingerbread, the charity for single parents, (which it claimed supported 'the abuse of children') and Mumsnet. It has also, somewhat mysteriously, branded London 2012 'the fatherless games'.
  1. We believe that the issue of father's access to children is important and needs to be discussed. We understand that many Fathers 4 Justice campaigners are driven by intense personal anger over what they feel is injustice they have suffered in their own cases. But the recent actions the group have taken against Mumsnet and others constitute plain and simple bullying and intimidation and only harm its cause.
  1. Reading this, you may well already be spitting tacks by now. Please do remember that's precisely what Fathers 4 Justice want. If you post on the subject please keep it civil. We won't be bullied, but we don't want to be dragged into the mire either.

Many thanks.

OP posts:
NormaStanleyFletcher · 17/03/2012 19:07

BOM I have heard that SeparatedDads are not too bad

Bucharest · 17/03/2012 19:17

Oh yawn.

A man tries to prove his point by getting his clanger out for us all to see.

Now't new under the sun today then.

MIssMarplesSideKick · 17/03/2012 19:34

I am looking forward to our M&S Mothers day dine in all the more now.

BIWI · 17/03/2012 19:37

I spent a very satisfactory time in M&S today, and we have a lovely dinner to look forward to as a consequence.

And bought DH a bottle of wine for his birthday there as well.

Deargdoom · 17/03/2012 19:39

I don't have much time for F4J but I do wonder about this bit MNHQ:
"3. We deleted a number of posts that broke our forum guidelines regarding personal attacks. In total we deleted 70 posts from the thread which went on over the next few days and reached 1000 posts in total. 60 were posts were made by regular Mumsnet members, ten or so by new joiners from Fathers 4 Justice. Our community managers reminded users to follow forum guidelines on nine separate occasions and at least one prolific Mumsnetter left the site in protest at our deletion policy."

Where are the posters from F4J now? It seems strange that none have appeared on this thread to argue their case- whatever it is. As far as I know, they ban anyone from commenting on their own sites and forums. If you've done the same to them- ie banned them all so that only your own case gets heard, you're just as bad and in no position to condemn their bully boy tactics.

TheCrackFox · 17/03/2012 19:39

I bought a new pair of shoes for work. Thank you M & S.

BIWI · 17/03/2012 19:41

Deargdoom - I don't think they were banned; they just had their posts deleted.

DillyTante · 17/03/2012 19:44

Loving 'clanger'. Not just an F4J clanger, an M&S F4J clanger.

nenevomito · 17/03/2012 19:44

I've just had a delicious dinner. Thanks M&S! Grin

GetOrfMoiiLand · 17/03/2012 19:49

I spent £30 on sweets, chocolate torte, pate, ice cream, ham and olives in M&S today, none of which I will eat because I am on a diet. DP and DD were bemusedly pleased though.

stewie I hope you're OK.

youarekidding · 17/03/2012 19:50

Dearg AFAIK posts were deleted as the broke guidelines, no-one was banned. MNHQ only ban trolls when they can prove that in fact they are. I think the post about how many deletions and regular MNers and prolific MNer were to prove they were treating MN and F4J the same, eg, break guidelines you'll be deleted whoever you are.

StewieGriffinsMom · 17/03/2012 20:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ShirleyKnot · 17/03/2012 20:03

I bought myself the excellent and wonderful value Eat In For £15 deal today. It comprised of a haddock gratin, Maris piper roasted potatoes, a Belgian chocolate and salted caramel pud and a bottle of wine.

I spent more than I usually would.

This isn't just any post, it's an M&S mumsnet post.

MIssMarplesSideKick · 17/03/2012 20:07

The chocolate Torte is lovely, we had it earlier today.

messyisthenewtidy · 17/03/2012 20:13

SGM you stuck up for Mumsnet brilliantly -thanks from those of us who aren't that brave.

Just bought some shoes for DS from M&S online.

Am feeling the MN love today Thanks

kenhallroad · 17/03/2012 20:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TunipTheVegemal · 17/03/2012 20:17

Envy @ salted caramel dessert.

AnyFucker · 17/03/2012 20:22

I reckon M+S will experience a rise in sales, not a dip, after this

swallowedAfly · 17/03/2012 20:28

thinking about it all the money they've spent on this ad (made from taking money from desperate dad's on their webpage) has been bugger all to do with improving the situation for their members or challenging the family court's practices. it has been spent on a hissy fit about mothers disagreeing with them.

if that's how they handled themselves in court i'm not surprised things didn't go their way.

they make zero positive statement re: we should do this, this change would help the system, this is how we are valuable etc etc they just slag off mum's, slag off and make up conspiracy theories about the courts, call victims of DV liars, attack mumsnet, gingerbread etc and call everyone child abusers. looking at that f4j doesn't seem to be a campaigning group at all but just an outlet for angry men who want to lash out at women.

SmellsLikeTeenStrop · 17/03/2012 20:29

I can't believe I actually went in to M&S on the day before mothers day. It was not fun being shoved and squished by 1009098123 people, but the chocolate cake I bought was delicious.

Deargdoom · 17/03/2012 20:31

youarekidding Sat 17-Mar-12 19:50:26
Dearg AFAIK posts were deleted as the broke guidelines, no-one was banned. MNHQ only ban trolls when they can prove that in fact they are. I think the post about how many deletions and regular MNers and prolific MNer were to prove they were treating MN and F4J the same, eg, break guidelines you'll be deleted whoever you are.

Perhaps butI find it difficult to believe that as they would just have reposted? I didn't see the thread so don't know who they were.
My bet is they were all banned. If the site isn't pre-moderated, that means a couple of serial complainers can get dissenting voices silenced.
One is as bad as the other as far as I can tell

MamaMaiasaura · 17/03/2012 20:35

Thanks Justine :)

poorbuthappy · 17/03/2012 20:37

Oooooo never been quoted before. And by Justine too. I am preening as I type.
Actually I went into M&S this morning to get required mothers day stuff. Ended up having a row with 1 of their staff about mothers day cards and whether or not they are included in the "buy 6 get 1 free" thingy card stamp thingy.
Emailed customer services, I was right, ms woman was well wrong. Gift card on the way.
Loving M&S at the moment. Grin

youarekidding · 17/03/2012 20:37

I didn't see it either Deargdoom. So I guess either is a possibility, however if banned you can re register under different email and username - so re post.

Hopefully MNHQ can clarify?

runningforthebusinheels · 17/03/2012 20:39

Deargdoom, posters are banned if they are deemed by MNHQ to be trolls - ie joining the site to cause trouble and post offensive statements - particularly if they are 'single issue' posters.

MN have not just banned any posters from F4J arbitrarily. Justine has said they are welcome to join in a rational debate. (I'm not sure you can actually have a rational debate with some of the characters posting on the FB page, but never mind). That is what MNHQ have said.

Plenty of posts by F4J still stand.