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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Fathers 4 Justice and their recent attacks on Mumsnet

999 replies

JustineMumsnet · 17/03/2012 09:28

Some of you may have noticed that a group called Fathers 4 Justice has been saying some pretty unpleasant things about us over the last couple of weeks. In an 'advert' which appeared first on Facebook and then in yesterday's edition of the I, the group claims Mumsnet 'promotes gender hatred', and labels 'men and boys as rapists, paedophiles and wife beaters'. It calls on advertisers to suspend advertising on Mumsnet.

Most people, I'm quite sure, will see the adverts and the 'campaign' behind them for precisely what they are: a naked attempt to court publicity by a group of people who for whatever reason appear to have tired of climbing cranes in superhero outfits. (And, just coincidentally, in the run up to Mothers' Day). In fact it feels a bit like having a particularly irritating toddler repeatedly prodding you with a stick to get some attention.

By and large it seemed most sensible to ignore them, not least because we've had our hands quite full with stuff that actually matters, like Mumsnet's 'We believe you' campaign to dispel rape myths.

But since Fathers 4 Justice appear to have attracted some grown ups' attention, we thought we should tell you a bit about the background to this attack, the truth behind their allegations, and how they are trying to bully us and other organisations. Here are 10 things you should know.

  1. On March 3rd a Mumsnet user started a conversation about a poster campaign being touted on Mumsnet's Facebook wall by Fathers 4 Justice, and the fact that Fathers 4 Justice was bombarding a number of sites with this troubling image.
  1. A conversation then ensued on Mumsnet about Fathers 4 Justice and their tactics which some members of Fathers 4 Justice joined. Some Mumsnetters said some pretty harsh things.
  1. We deleted a number of posts that broke our forum guidelines regarding personal attacks. In total we deleted 70 posts from the thread which went on over the next few days and reached 1000 posts in total. 60 were posts were made by regular Mumsnet members, ten or so by new joiners from Fathers 4 Justice. Our community managers reminded users to follow forum guidelines on nine separate occasions and at least one prolific Mumsnetter left the site in protest at our deletion policy.
  1. On March 7th and March 8th MNHQ received a series of emails from the Campaign Director of Fathers 4 Justice containing threats of legal action and a threat to contact our advertisers. At the same time comments on the Fathers 4 Justice Facebook page describing Mumsnetters as 'barking mad harridans', 'weird sex obsessed paranoid perverts' and 'child abusing contact blockers' were left unmoderated. As were comments that described me variously as a 'dried up old hag', 'an evil woman' and having an 'IQ that would return a negative score'.
  1. On March 11th Fathers 4 Justice posted another attack ad this time accusing M&S of 'sponsoring hateful, bigoted and prejudiced comments about men and boys on Mumsnet' and demanding that M&S withdraw all advertising on Mumsnet or face a boycott. It accused the company of 'serving up gender hatred for Mother's Day'.
  1. Other organisations have experienced similar bullying tactics. In recent weeks Fathers 4 Justice have targeted the lone parents' support charity, Gingerbread, jamming up its telephone helplines. Senior NGO staff have told us they felt too intimidated to speak out against them.
  1. The suggestion that Mumsnet encourages gender hatred would be funny if it were not so offensive - and plain silly. The central aim of Mumsnet is to make parents' (mothers' and fathers') lives easier. There are many and varied opinions on the site and no one Mumsnet party line prevails, save for the view that we respect diverse opinion. We do not pre-moderate or vet comments made to our discussion boards of which there are around 30 000 every day. Men are and always have been extremely welcome on Mumsnet - we have a Dadsnet forum for Dads to talk directly with other men should they wish. We estimate that around 5-10% of our 2 million odd monthly users are men.

Of course you can always find plenty of Mumsnetters whinging about their male partners' shortcomings - more than there are whinging about their female partners' shortcomings - but generalisations are swiftly pounced on and we do not tolerate gender hatred, or any other kind of hatred for that matter (save maybe hatred of Fruitshoots). We encourage people to be civil and supportive and, in the main, most people are.

  1. Fathers 4 Justice campaigns for fathers to have access to their children following separation or divorce. Its founder, Matt O'Connor, says parents have 'fewer rights than a terrorist'. The organisation was temporarily disbanded in 2006 after it emerged that some of its members had plotted to kidnap Tony Blair's son Leo. Fathers 4 Justice boasts that it is 'the most controversial and high profile pressure group of modern times' but it has struggled to win public attention since abandoning its eye-catching tactic of scaling tall structures in superhero costumes. In recent weeks it has targeted Cafcass, the body responsible for protecting the rights of children in court proceedings, Gingerbread, the charity for single parents, (which it claimed supported 'the abuse of children') and Mumsnet. It has also, somewhat mysteriously, branded London 2012 'the fatherless games'.
  1. We believe that the issue of father's access to children is important and needs to be discussed. We understand that many Fathers 4 Justice campaigners are driven by intense personal anger over what they feel is injustice they have suffered in their own cases. But the recent actions the group have taken against Mumsnet and others constitute plain and simple bullying and intimidation and only harm its cause.
  1. Reading this, you may well already be spitting tacks by now. Please do remember that's precisely what Fathers 4 Justice want. If you post on the subject please keep it civil. We won't be bullied, but we don't want to be dragged into the mire either.

Many thanks.

OP posts:
arula · 17/03/2012 20:39

Waste of time talking to them, absolute waste. Cutting off their noses to spite their faces. If some of them are resorting to violent threats and intimidation, is it any wonder why? smh

KatieMiddleton · 17/03/2012 20:39

The purpose of MN is to support parents. If individuals representing a particular political agenda (and F4J claims to be some sort of pressure group even if they don't conduct themselves like respectable lobbyists) come to this site for the sole purpose of promoting and furthering that agenda then that is trolling and persistent perpurtrators should be banned.

youarekidding · 17/03/2012 20:42

Thankyou for explaining. That makes it clearer for me. < M&S Thanks>

slug · 17/03/2012 20:52

You do have to wonder at the psychology behind the naked protest

i.e. Look! I have a penis My penis sets me above women. My penis gives me rights. The courts must take notice of me because I have a penis. You can't ignore me. You can ignore women, they don't have a penis My prnis makes me special. etc

Beachcomber · 17/03/2012 21:00

Yes, I think you are quite right there slug.

ShirleyKnot · 17/03/2012 21:21

SAF makes (yet again) a brilliant point about the negative aspect of their 'campaign'.

I showed the advert to my son (who has a father who CBA to keep in touch or pay maintenance) and he LAUGHED! 'HATE your mum?' he sneered 'douchebags'

So there you are - out of the mouths of babes (teenagers) Grin

JustineMumsnet · 17/03/2012 21:37

@Deargdoom

youarekidding Sat 17-Mar-12 19:50:26 Dearg AFAIK posts were deleted as the broke guidelines, no-one was banned. MNHQ only ban trolls when they can prove that in fact they are. I think the post about how many deletions and regular MNers and prolific MNer were to prove they were treating MN and F4J the same, eg, break guidelines you'll be deleted whoever you are.

Perhaps butI find it difficult to believe that as they would just have reposted? I didn't see the thread so don't know who they were.
My bet is they were all banned. If the site isn't pre-moderated, that means a couple of serial complainers can get dissenting voices silenced.
One is as bad as the other as far as I can tell

We haven't banned any F4J supporter who joined in the last couple of weeks. We did ban a returning troll, who we believe may also be a F4J supporter, from the thread about the Independent in AIBU. We also banned one F4J supporter from our Facebook page for posting very aggressively.

We don't ban people for contrary views or for criticising MNHQ - we'd lose a lot of posters if we did (smile).

OP posts:
ivykaty44 · 17/03/2012 21:51

I still don't get what the olympics has to do with all this - will the sports people be naked?

NormaStanleyFletcher · 17/03/2012 21:55

slug and shirley

Brilliant. Both of you :)

ShirleyKnot · 17/03/2012 21:56

To be fair Ivy, the original Olympics were pretty much naked.

It's like a return to Good Old Fashioned Values of women and children being chattel

Nyac · 17/03/2012 21:58

They're calling it the fatherless Olympics, so perhaps that means that F4J will be sitting quietly at home and not indulging in their usual attention seeking tactics.

Mind you aren't there going to be police snipers operating on shoot to kill in helicopters circling above the stadia? So maybe they don't fancy their chances so much this time. They were quite lucky not to get shot at Buckingham Palace.

PattiMayor · 17/03/2012 22:01

Oh god though Nyac, can you imagine? An f4j martyr? It would be painful

NormaStanleyFletcher · 17/03/2012 22:02

snigger

NormaStanleyFletcher · 17/03/2012 22:06

"Fathers 4 Justice - The Official Campaign Organisation ‎@Real I think you should stop looking at their site our budget does not stretch to providing you with on going counselling for being subject to that amount of abuse. As I have said before if they were a credible organisation with a sensible view on family law then maybe it would be worth the effort but they are not so save yourself the pain. Nadine"

How tender do they think their members are to not be able to cope with MN?

PineappleBed · 17/03/2012 22:09

Justine, thank you for this response it is the sort of balanced straight talking and fair assessment that I associate with MN.

I hope M&S send all a MN towers a treat as you guys must has been working your asses off over the last few weeks.

MN is a fantastic forum for support. When my DD was 4 days old and unable to fed I logged on at 3am in a complete state and got support and help which saw us safely through the night. My DH and I will be forever grateful for that.

[Thanks]

cornsilksity · 17/03/2012 22:13

I think that they don't like the idea of athletes showing them up
They will look really fat in their Lycra suits next to the Olympians

MmeLindor. · 17/03/2012 22:22

Great response.

I have spent loads of money in the past weeks in M&S. Glad that I can now tell DH that it was all For A Good Cause.

AnyFucker · 17/03/2012 22:42

I also acknowledge and appreciate the extra work that is furiously going on behind the scenes at MNHQ

NorfolkNChance · 17/03/2012 22:44

Well said AF, and on Mother's Day weekend too. Hope everyone at MNHQ has a nice cold glass of wine when all this is over.

FarloRigel · 17/03/2012 22:47

Thanks, Justine.

I just think it is such a shame that F4J are doing this, I agree with so many others here on MN that it is a terrible thing to deny any child access to either of their parents unless doing so puts that child at risk of physical or emotional harm. I cannot defend any parent who denies their child access to the other parent for any reason except a well-founded fear for the well-being of that child and I see no empirical difference in the value of male or female parents based solely upon their sex. Thankfully my DD's father and I are still together, but if that was to ever change, I could never see myself attempting to prevent my DD from having shared custody with her father, who is an essential and incredibly beneficial part of her life in exactly the same way that I am.

Prior to this ill-judged campaign, whilst I never considered their tactics desperately constructive, I actually felt quite sympathetic to them as an organisation, as I can only imagine the pain of any parent unable to see their child. It is a truly heartbreaking situation for any loving parent to find themselves in. However, I now find myself suspicious that this organisation's members have let bitterness from their own personal struggles get the better of them and are actively targeting organisations comprised predominantly of women for the sole reason that they despise women. This is very sad, as any parent who is wrongly denied access to their child deserves much better representation than this. I feel so sorry for every man with a genuine grievance tonight, as they are being hideously undermined by their 'representatives'. I know there is a saying that all publicity is good publicity, but surely not where it reinforces a damaging stereotype of misogyny and irresponsibility for people who need to demonstrate to their previous partners and potentially a court of law that they are decent, responsible individuals, fit to provide good care and to be a beneficial role model for the child they are desperate to see.

EnsignRo · 17/03/2012 22:49

Thanks Justine for your post, good to know you're not being intimidated by these men, who seem to be taking a worthy cause and making a mockery of it.I for one feel a little bit proud to be on MN today.

YuleingFanjo · 17/03/2012 22:52

Thanks for the update. I too spent some money in m&s today.

MIssMarplesSideKick · 17/03/2012 23:01

Ens, I thought F4J was mainly women now a days, not just Men Confused

runningforthebusinheels · 17/03/2012 23:11

Nadine says one third of their supporters are women, MissMarple,

Although judging from their FB page, a lot of these are the new partners of men who are having trouble gaining access to their dc from a previous relationship.

AnyFucker · 17/03/2012 23:17

Nadine has her own issues, IMO