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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Fathers 4 Justice and their recent attacks on Mumsnet

999 replies

JustineMumsnet · 17/03/2012 09:28

Some of you may have noticed that a group called Fathers 4 Justice has been saying some pretty unpleasant things about us over the last couple of weeks. In an 'advert' which appeared first on Facebook and then in yesterday's edition of the I, the group claims Mumsnet 'promotes gender hatred', and labels 'men and boys as rapists, paedophiles and wife beaters'. It calls on advertisers to suspend advertising on Mumsnet.

Most people, I'm quite sure, will see the adverts and the 'campaign' behind them for precisely what they are: a naked attempt to court publicity by a group of people who for whatever reason appear to have tired of climbing cranes in superhero outfits. (And, just coincidentally, in the run up to Mothers' Day). In fact it feels a bit like having a particularly irritating toddler repeatedly prodding you with a stick to get some attention.

By and large it seemed most sensible to ignore them, not least because we've had our hands quite full with stuff that actually matters, like Mumsnet's 'We believe you' campaign to dispel rape myths.

But since Fathers 4 Justice appear to have attracted some grown ups' attention, we thought we should tell you a bit about the background to this attack, the truth behind their allegations, and how they are trying to bully us and other organisations. Here are 10 things you should know.

  1. On March 3rd a Mumsnet user started a conversation about a poster campaign being touted on Mumsnet's Facebook wall by Fathers 4 Justice, and the fact that Fathers 4 Justice was bombarding a number of sites with this troubling image.
  1. A conversation then ensued on Mumsnet about Fathers 4 Justice and their tactics which some members of Fathers 4 Justice joined. Some Mumsnetters said some pretty harsh things.
  1. We deleted a number of posts that broke our forum guidelines regarding personal attacks. In total we deleted 70 posts from the thread which went on over the next few days and reached 1000 posts in total. 60 were posts were made by regular Mumsnet members, ten or so by new joiners from Fathers 4 Justice. Our community managers reminded users to follow forum guidelines on nine separate occasions and at least one prolific Mumsnetter left the site in protest at our deletion policy.
  1. On March 7th and March 8th MNHQ received a series of emails from the Campaign Director of Fathers 4 Justice containing threats of legal action and a threat to contact our advertisers. At the same time comments on the Fathers 4 Justice Facebook page describing Mumsnetters as 'barking mad harridans', 'weird sex obsessed paranoid perverts' and 'child abusing contact blockers' were left unmoderated. As were comments that described me variously as a 'dried up old hag', 'an evil woman' and having an 'IQ that would return a negative score'.
  1. On March 11th Fathers 4 Justice posted another attack ad this time accusing M&S of 'sponsoring hateful, bigoted and prejudiced comments about men and boys on Mumsnet' and demanding that M&S withdraw all advertising on Mumsnet or face a boycott. It accused the company of 'serving up gender hatred for Mother's Day'.
  1. Other organisations have experienced similar bullying tactics. In recent weeks Fathers 4 Justice have targeted the lone parents' support charity, Gingerbread, jamming up its telephone helplines. Senior NGO staff have told us they felt too intimidated to speak out against them.
  1. The suggestion that Mumsnet encourages gender hatred would be funny if it were not so offensive - and plain silly. The central aim of Mumsnet is to make parents' (mothers' and fathers') lives easier. There are many and varied opinions on the site and no one Mumsnet party line prevails, save for the view that we respect diverse opinion. We do not pre-moderate or vet comments made to our discussion boards of which there are around 30 000 every day. Men are and always have been extremely welcome on Mumsnet - we have a Dadsnet forum for Dads to talk directly with other men should they wish. We estimate that around 5-10% of our 2 million odd monthly users are men.

Of course you can always find plenty of Mumsnetters whinging about their male partners' shortcomings - more than there are whinging about their female partners' shortcomings - but generalisations are swiftly pounced on and we do not tolerate gender hatred, or any other kind of hatred for that matter (save maybe hatred of Fruitshoots). We encourage people to be civil and supportive and, in the main, most people are.

  1. Fathers 4 Justice campaigns for fathers to have access to their children following separation or divorce. Its founder, Matt O'Connor, says parents have 'fewer rights than a terrorist'. The organisation was temporarily disbanded in 2006 after it emerged that some of its members had plotted to kidnap Tony Blair's son Leo. Fathers 4 Justice boasts that it is 'the most controversial and high profile pressure group of modern times' but it has struggled to win public attention since abandoning its eye-catching tactic of scaling tall structures in superhero costumes. In recent weeks it has targeted Cafcass, the body responsible for protecting the rights of children in court proceedings, Gingerbread, the charity for single parents, (which it claimed supported 'the abuse of children') and Mumsnet. It has also, somewhat mysteriously, branded London 2012 'the fatherless games'.
  1. We believe that the issue of father's access to children is important and needs to be discussed. We understand that many Fathers 4 Justice campaigners are driven by intense personal anger over what they feel is injustice they have suffered in their own cases. But the recent actions the group have taken against Mumsnet and others constitute plain and simple bullying and intimidation and only harm its cause.
  1. Reading this, you may well already be spitting tacks by now. Please do remember that's precisely what Fathers 4 Justice want. If you post on the subject please keep it civil. We won't be bullied, but we don't want to be dragged into the mire either.

Many thanks.

OP posts:
SophieNeveu · 19/03/2012 09:55

Your tactics of attempting to put me down, won't cause me or control my behaviour to engage in your choice of conversation topic, for your agenda!

JD2510 · 19/03/2012 09:56

Dillytante, no bullying or intimidation from F4J as far as I can see. They are merely asking MN not to allow HATE postings on their forums etc

It is certainly write to demonstrate against HATE where-ever it rears its ugly head.

Surely you do not disagree with that?

P.S. 25% of F4J's members are women I understand.

JD2510 · 19/03/2012 09:58

KatieM, its good to stand by one's posts but if everyone did that then there would be no reasoned discussion and no movement forward.

Do you agree that hatred of men, women, girls and boys should not be aired on any public forum?

Dillytante · 19/03/2012 10:02

Well firstly I know a mumsnetter was told she should be put up against a wall and shot. But that aside, you have spectacularly missed my point. Nowhere is mumsnet saying anything about all men across the land, as you assert. In fact it is F4J who are making sweeping generalisations about all women based on their limited experiences.

SophieNeveu · 19/03/2012 10:04

dilly, JD has come here with an agenda, I for one will not engage in hismchosen topic of choice!

SoupDragon · 19/03/2012 10:05

"They are merely asking MN not to allow HATE postings on their forums etc"

Can someone please point me to a specific example of these postings please.

JD2510 · 19/03/2012 10:06

Dillytante, if that was said then it was wrong and it should be treated as such. No problem.

Don't forget until F4J protested against MN allowing hate posts on their forums, there was no action by MN.

After protests MN have said they removed 70 posts, 60 from MN regulars. So there was clearly a problem with hate posts from some MN regulars.

The problem with allowing hate posts to continue on a public forum is that for some it becomes normal language and they do not recognise it as hate.

Glad to see MN have finally taken some action. MN will be better off with a policy to stop hate posts and deter those that stir up gender politics.

JD2510 · 19/03/2012 10:08

SoupDragon, MN removed 60 odd posts from MN regulars after the protests of F4J. Well done MN but they should not have been allowed to be there in the first place of course.

See Justine's post here:

  1. We deleted a number of posts that broke our forum guidelines regarding personal attacks. In total we deleted 70 posts from the thread which went on over the next few days and reached 1000 posts in total. 60 were posts were made by regular Mumsnet members, ten or so by new joiners from Fathers 4 Justice. Our community managers reminded users to follow forum guidelines on nine separate occasions and at least one prolific Mumsnetter left the site in protest at our deletion policy.
SophieNeveu · 19/03/2012 10:08

Dilly, we can all read the words written on the Baby advert, and the wording od MN statement, I thought JD was cleaver...

AnyFucker · 19/03/2012 10:08

please ignore JD, don't let the thread be derailed

JD2510 · 19/03/2012 10:11

AnyF... Surely we should all be agreeing that 'hate' in whatever form needs to be challenged by all of us.

Sorry if you think this is derailing the thread.

StewieGriffinsMom · 19/03/2012 10:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

KRITIQ · 19/03/2012 10:15

Folks, seriously, ignore the small, hirsute Scandanavian types, if you know what I mean. They only want to wear you out, drag you down and try and entrap you into saying something that can be twisted and reposted elsewhere as ammunition against those nasty mean "womenfolk" at MN. Silence pees them off more.

JD2510 · 19/03/2012 10:19

Stewie.... I've been on the F4J FB this morning - I can't see any homophobic comments and disability comments - Dont forget that some F4J members are gay and lesbian.

Perhaps you could point us to them with some examples? Or are you just making it up?

P.S. I'm not a F4J member but just someone who is interested after seeing the spat.

swallowedAfly · 19/03/2012 10:20

oh what a load of tosh.

if i was to say, 'i think f4j members are idiots' it is not synonymous to 'i think men are idiots'.

f4j is not representative of men or fathers in the broad sense. it is mostly representative of men who have been deemed unfit to have contact, or as much contact as they'd like, by a court of law. that is the vast, vast, tiny to the point of near non existant minority of men.

you can't take dislike for f4j and their tactics as being dislike for all men ffs. they're not all men.

likewise if i was to say i did not like nuns it couldn't be taken as gender hatred because whilst all nuns are women not all women are nuns.

and it is not our reaction that has made the f4j agenda ridiculous but the ridiculous way they've chosen to try and promote it. it's like blaming the audience for a comedian not being funny. it's the material that was shit.

JD2510 · 19/03/2012 10:20

KRITIQ, why are you name-calling and getting personal?

It is not helpful.

swallowedAfly · 19/03/2012 10:21

there is no hate against men and boys here.

re: yes we hate rapists and all rapists are men however not all men are rapists. so if you take someone hating rapists as a personal insult......?

swallowedAfly · 19/03/2012 10:22

what's the spam policy here? other forums i've been on have counted epic cut and pastes as spam which this would qualify as.

JD2510 · 19/03/2012 10:22

swallowed.... I don't disagree with you... If someone says MN are (nasty names).... Then that doesnt mean all mothers or women are (nasty names).

However, I would expect any responsible site not to allow hate on their forums whoever it is aimed at.

swallowedAfly · 19/03/2012 10:24

also i don't think it is unreasonable to believe a court judgement. it's not libelous to say that a man who cafcass and a court of law has deemed unfit to parent is probably unfit to parent. it's like saying that calling a convicted murderer a murderer is libelous. re: utter bs.

swallowedAfly · 19/03/2012 10:25

so we shouldn't hate nazis? we shouldn't hate child abusers and pedophiles? we shouldn't hate producers of child pornography or people who traffic women as sex slaves?

bs.

Henry1980 · 19/03/2012 10:29

You seriously cant be comparing people who complain about the family court to Nazi's, child abusers and paedophiles or slave traders?

YuleingFanjo · 19/03/2012 10:29

Don't feed the trolls!

swallowedAfly · 19/03/2012 10:31

of course i'm not henry. do you have problems with basic comprehension? it was in response to the idea that a website should not allow any form of hatred and hatred or criticism of any group was to be avoided.

TheQuietCricket · 19/03/2012 10:31

Dh took the dc to M&S on Saturday to buy Mothers Day cards and gifts for me.

Dh doesn't follow MN so he has no idea how happy it made me that he gave M&S his trade for Mothers Day gifts.