DBF banning thread, part 2.

[Rhinestone]

OCCUPY MUMSNET continues......

Justine, that was a little topical joke, please don't ban me!

"People on that thread who did make personal comments were not banned"

Because they were not on a final warning. MNHQ don't just ban people for a personal attack.

@silverfrog

I htought I hadn't seen you around recently, glue

so, you got banned, huh? because of complaints? (you had very definitely moderated your posting style) or because you were so critical of MNHQ, do you think?

consistency is the key issue here. and clear guidleines (or clear guidelines on how the guidelines will be applied)

If we banned people for being critical of us, half the bleedin lot of ya would be gone!

@catsrus

**

I think we all need to get clear in our minds what the rules really are for and how they might work to everyones advantage ...

I'm assuming that they exist so that this can be the best, most supportive. parenting site ever etc etc. fair enough. That's technically I suppose a Utilitarian stance, wanting the best outcome for the most people.

you can take two approaches to this
Rule utilitarianism and Act utilitarianism

Rule U says - " set up the rules that generally have the best outcome for the most people and stick to them". This leads to situations like the one we have here, she broke the rules and should suffer the consequences - and to situations in the USA where the "three strikes and you're out" policy means people going back to prison to serve life sentences when their third offence is dropping litter

Act U says " take the action in each situation that has the best outcome for the most people" - which means take circumstances and situations into account. Is it really for the benefit of the MN community to ban this or that person? is it really best for the community to put someone away for the rest of their life? etc.

Rule U is relatively easy and economical to enforce - Act U is hard and time consuming. A site this huge has to have rules that are enforceable and clear, I know that - but if it really is to be a place that is a genuine community then I think sometimes there is the need to ask the question "will enforcing this rule in this situation have the best outcome for this community of people?" I would suggest that in this situation the answer to this question might be "no".

I think this is a very interesting and helpful post Catrus. Thank you. I largely agree with your analysis as it happens. We ought to be able to be flexible and pragmatic. My worry is that that if we don't enforce the rule then nothing will change in the Doghouse and we think that in order for MN to be "the best, most supportive parenting site it can be" etc etc the Doghouse very much needs to change.

am quite that out of all the thread Justine quoted that post of mine... but anyway - could we have clear and absolute guidelines on what constitutes a personal attack, please?

I posted this on the last thread too.

eg - I have been deleted for telling someone (under extreme provocation, I may add) to fuck off. in my book, that is unpleasant language, and not a personal attack.

was it deleted simply becasue it was reported? there are proabbly hundreds of examples of 'fuck the fuck off and when you get there fuck off some more' that still stand across the boards - presumably because they were not reported?

even if a post is reported (eg a 'fuck off' post) - does that man it should automatically be deleted? or shoudl context (like, in my case, a poster telling me they hoped natural selection would 'take care' of my dd2 - ie hoped she would die because she is unvaccinated) be taken into account?

if context is taken into account, shoudl background also be taken into account (this is where it becomes relevant to this thread again - apologies for the sidetrack), as in the dbf/tles exchange on lying.

I can understand why there are so many people saying dbf shouldn't be banned for what she said on that thread. I can also understand why Justine took the position she did over it.

but the rules are not always clear on what constitutes a personal attack, and clarificaiton would be useful I think.

oh sorry i did two posts in one...

argh!

and quoted again

god Justine

Silverfrog - I'm sure it doesn't mean she's out to get you. You always have two anonymous cars parked outside your house and a buzzing noise on your phone right? And a CIA grab squad are cleaning your windows and posing as your postman but I wouldn't worry......... Just cover the mirrors efore taking your clothes off.

Hello Pinot,

I thought if you asked for advice on here it would be like asking advice from friends. Some would placate you, some would offer decent, helpful, honest advice and some would kick your arse and tell you to get a grip.

Did things really get that bad? I missed the doghouse/aibu thread that started this. I've read some quite rare things on MN in general that haven't been deleted, I'm just wondering what sort of comment merits getting banned. DBF hit fairly near the knuckle but she spoke from the heart. She perhaps had real life images in her head that I would have in my nightmares.

I know that personal attacks are not allowed, but what is a personal attack? Genuine question - how far is too far?

we did have a different postman today - the post actually got delivered (which is a marvellous event indeed)

phone has always been up the creek (weird wiring system), but bizarrely today the water filter (plumbed in job) started behaving oddly - do ya reckon MNHQ have infiltrated ?

why is the doghouse getting such special treatment? seems a bit odd that a topic about a lifestyle choice has mn hq in a lather. yet they allow some disgusting stuff to stand in other places

If more posters posted in the DH then it would change. There would be a wider view point and a wider range of threads. Atm it just seems to be used by regulars or those wanting to rehome their pets.

Sorry it took me ages to type this, and realised it's a xpost.

The Doghouse does need to change (or rather, certain aspects of it need to - there is an awful lot of friendly stuff on there that seems to get missed by some).

tbh, having said my bit last night I shall still go back to avoiding AIBU - I've seen a lot that needs changing there too, but as its more of a transient population thats unlikely to happen I suppose.

Unless, as SilverFrog says, we can have more clarity on what isn't acceptable and what is - not just in the DH, but across MN.

YES to what Dooin said, too. More posters, more regulars - but then, if we want more posters and regulars, we need to make sure we are consistently (key word) welcoming, and when we don't feel welcoming, polite.

500+ posts on the 2nd thread

MNHQ, have you come any closer to any decision re DBF?

I know lots of people will disagree with me, but MN, marvellous as it of course is, is an internet forum. Not more, not less.
Don't go on, switch off, hide threads/topics etc etc to your hearts content.

No, I don't want moderators on here.
Yes, DBF/Valhalla had been warned.
Yes, her tone can be aggressive/hectoring - nobody has to listen to her.
She has never (to my knowledge) gone out of her way to hurt anybody's feeling without a fair bit of cause or messed with people maliciously.
OTOH, she has been extremely helpful to lots of dogs people which in my eyes tips the balance of her 'worth' very much in her favour.

So, MNHQ, be a man or whatever and make a decision. And then live with the consequences

Justine, have you rethought mnhqs position?

Is there further decision making happening? I mean we aren't a democracy, this is your site - does it make a difference that it's a bit split what we think of the decision (think it's slightly more in favour of giving Dbf another chance - but I'm biased so probably ain't counting properly)

@UrsulaBonfirey

Pan I was going to type 'imagine my opinion is that women deserve to be raped'. Would that do you for hate? You are creating a semantic argument and frankly shitting on my point.

We would always delete a comment like this though and most likely warn the poster.

Doghouse threads I've seen today have all been lovely. And no, I don't think because DBF wasn't there, but because (a) most doghouse threads are lovely anyway and (b) I reckon the message has been got across.

I suspect all hell would break lose if they announced their decision re DBF. The whole slow circle would start again.

The Pacific Dog Wood would be a nice name for a reborn friendly dog topic.

The Pacific Dog Wood would be a nice name for a reborn friendly dog topic.
fabulous!

As Silverfrog said, 'I can understand.'

If you feel that things need to change in The Dog House Justine, then perhaps changing the way that section is set up, what it covers and even it's name might be necessary. And stickies giving advice on eg 'Thinking of getting a dog?', 'How to find a responsible breeder', 'What to do if you're thinking of rehoming your dog' and 'Neutering your Pet' could help.

I know that MN generally doesn't use stickies but in this particular section it could be useful. If you didn't want stickies, you could eg put links to The Dog's Trust or similar sites that give that information.

It might seem counterintuitive, but by addressing these very common general issues at the outset, and even directing people off the board for that info if you wanted to, it could remove these arguments from individual theads.

Pacific - 500 posts on the second thread is not impressive. It's downright worrying. The shade of Moldiegate (aka the threads that stole Christmas) creeps ever closer....

@GrimmaTheNome

>Incidentally I frequently disagreed with DBF but wouldn't post as I didn't want to incur DBF wrath

What did you think would happen? She'd arrive on your doorstep with a slavering pack of GSDs?

Having one poster rule an area of a board does not promote free speech
the answer to that is, don't be a coward. Sorry, but if the DH isn't as it should be, its the responsibility of those who don't post as well as those who do.

I see what you're saying here, Grimma, but actually I think it's also our responsibility, which is why we have got involved in this case.

Oh, I feel a namechange coming on: PacifisticDogWood