Private Boarding vs. Day School vs. Grammar

[Breeze67]

As a parent of a Year 5 DD, I’m struggling to justify the premium of a private day school. My primary concern is the disruption and mixed academic abilities in comprehensive state schools, which is why a selective school—be it a grammar or an independent one—seems like a solid solution. There is so much praise for independent schools, but when you look at the time factor, it gets complicated: When you look at how little time kids are actually at school—only covering half the year (private schools have much longer holidays) and only 8 out of 24 hours in a school day—it is clear that the heavy lifting, the real character building, and extra learning still happen at home. If we parents are doing the bulk of the work, what are we actually paying the big fees for?
Despite the fancy surface, much of the day-to-day experience between a grammar and an indie is not significantly different. Whether it’s museum trips, sports days, or classroom activities, the core experience cannot be vastly different. Is a class of 20-plus kids in a private day school really that much better than 30 in a top grammar? Of course, a difference exists, but likely impacts less than 1/3 of the school time. So, if we look at the maths, it’s 1/3 (the advantage) of 1/3 (the school day duration) of 1/2 (the school year), which is only about 1/18 of the year's time! Are we paying a figure roughly equivalent to the UK average salary for what essentially amounts to a 1/18 difference in yearly education? I am shocked by the number.
This leads me to wonder: is boarding the only true exception? Personally, I will not do it because I just enjoy my kid's company every day. But logically, only full boarding offers a genuine holistic education. It is a 24/7 immersion into an academic and social community that a day school, by design, simply cannot touch.
So, if day schools aren't significantly better than grammars, and I’m unwilling to consider boarding, am I left with a compromise? Are we paying for a superior education, or just a different peer group?

They also have longer school days and fewer holidays than the grammar school.

In the UK, both grammar schools and comprehensives are state-funded secondary schools, meaning they are bound by the same overarching government guidelines regarding school hours.
Here is how the breakdown works:

• The 32.5-Hour Minimum: The government requires all mainstream, state-funded schools in England to deliver a minimum school week of 32.5 hours. This averages out to about 6.5 hours per day (for example, 8:45 AM to 3:15 PM), including registration, assemblies, lunch, and breaks.

• School Autonomy: Individual schools—regardless of whether they are selective grammar schools or non-selective comprehensives—have the legal right to determine their own specific start and end times. Because of this, you will find slight variations from town to town, but it is entirely based on the specific school's decision rather than its classification.

@Breeze67

It is a myth with that less homework.

On average, students at grammar schools generally get more homework, or at the very least, much more academically demanding homework than students at comprehensive schools.

The biggest difference usually isn't just the time spent, but the complexity of the tasks:
Grammar homework tends to feature highly independent, "open-ended" tasks-such as advanced essay writing, deep research projects, or complex mathematical problem-solving. The same in top sets in comprehensive schooks
Comprehensive homework in middle and lower sets often utilises structured, targeted tasks designed to make sure every student has grasped the core curriculum before moving on

Ultimately, if someone is looking for an environment with less evening study and lower academic pressure, a grammar school is rarely the place they will find it.

This grammar sounds like a lot of parent involvement to get the results.

Actually I do not mind that, as I am prepared to supplement the school's curriculum with family support. I am happy to do that as both grammar and comprehensive are free. What I cannot control, however, are school rules, homework policies, and the peer group. I would prefer a motivating peer group and a lighter school workload. While I understand that the top set of a comprehensive school is similar to a grammar school, IMO it is better for my DD's development to be surrounded by a whole school of peers (not just those in your top set class) who are on par academically.

That is not possible with holidays.

Well, I initially also doubted the difference when I saw the facts. After verifying that Academies (not maintained schools) have the autonomy to set their own schedules independently of the local council, it makes sense that a non-selective but high-achieving academy might shorten holidays to intensify the workload and boost results.

Free Meals in this economy say very little about parents. They could be IT specialists that lost jobs.

Sure. However, when you see a threefold difference in rates between schools, it does reflect a trend. I checked schools in affluent areas like St. Albans and some wealthy London borough and found FSM rates consistently below 10% (National average around 25%), which confirms there is a solid relationship between FSM rate and parents' financial status.

It seems pretty clear that for the things you value - academics, academic peer group, motivated peer group, cost - grammar is going to win.

Other parents may value other things that private can provide such as great facilities, more support for extra curricular talents, more flexibility over timetable/subject choices, greater staff ratios etc.

Other parents may have much more money and so not be too bothered about the “pounds per hour” calculation you are doing.

Other parents may not have grammar available to them either because of where they live or their child’s ability.

As for boarding: yes it offers more time at school, obviously, but most of the extra time is sleeping or hanging out. Immersion into school isn’t necessarily a positive unless you need wraparound/overnight childcare.

The justification will vary from family to family. This is not surprising surely.

This has neither been proven nor even strongly demonstrated. It remains quite controversial. For example, a study released only two months ago by the Education Endowment Foundation at the UCL Institute of Education found:

• Students in schools using mixed attainment grouping made one month’s less progress in mathematics, on average, compared to students in schools using setting by attainment. This is our best estimate of impact, which has a low/moderate security rating.
• Among students eligible for free school meals (FSM), those in school using mixed attainment grouping made similar progress in mathematics, on average, compared to those in schools using setting by attainment. These results may have lower security than the overall findings because of the smaller number of students.
• Among low-prior attaining students, those in schools using mixed attainment grouping made similar progress in mathematics, on average, compared to students in schools using setting by attainment. These results may have lower security than the overall findings because of the smaller number of students.
• Among high-prior attaining students, those in schools using mixed attainment grouping made, on average, two fewer months’ progress in mathematics compared to students in schools using setting by attainment. These results may have lower security than the overall findings because of the smaller number of students.

Thanks for sharing that recent research. It has always seemed obvious to me that high-ability students would be slowed down in a mixed-ability setting and would thrive in the fast-paced environment of a top set. Therefore, the claim made in this thread "It has been proven in various studies that mixed ability at start of senior school leads to better results for both higher and lower performers" really baffles me. I admit, however, that it is less clear whether mixed-ability setting actually benefits low-ability students.

Research into ability groupings is mixed. Most studies that find an impact (in either direction) report very small effect sizes (including the one above). I don’t have a particular axe to grind about it and think particularly for maths they can be useful. However, the impact they have on progress and attainment (in either direction) is quite small & there are challenges with the interpretation of the research. However, I won’t derail the thread with what could quickly turn into an essay.

On average, students at grammar schools generally get more homework, or at the very least, much more academically demanding homework than students at comprehensive schools.

Sigh. Sources? Young people do engage in academically demanding class and homework at comprehensives. Some actually attain quite highly ….

"On average, students at grammar schools generally get more homework, or at the very least, much more academically demanding homework than students at comprehensive schools.
Sigh. Sources? Young people do engage in academically demanding class and homework at comprehensives. Some actually attain quite highly …."

@Owlbookend @BlueMoonIceCream

I cannot speak to the "average", but looking at the websites for Schools A and B, the daily homework load at School A is roughly 30 minutes to an hour longer than at School B from Year 9 onwards. This is what matters to me, as School A is our local comprehensive and School B is the grammar school we are targeting.

Tunbridge Wells Grammar School for Boys: Their official homework policy explicitly states that students are expected to do approximately 10 hours of homework per fortnight in Key Stage 3 (Years 7–9), which then scales up to 12 hours for GCSE years. You can read their framework directly via the Tunbridge Wells Grammar School Homework Policy.

Sutton Grammar School: In their official curriculum guide, they outline that by the upper years (GCSE), students are expected to complete approximately 20 hours of homework per fortnight. You can review this expectation in the Sutton Grammar School GCSE Curriculum Booklet.

Lancaster Royal Grammar School: Their policy details that homework is set on strict, designated nights per subject, expecting up to 20 minutes per subject in Years 7 and 8, rising up to 40 minutes per subject for GCSEs. Check out their structural rules at the Lancaster Royal Grammar School Homework Guide.

With th exception of schools that have sets and top sets comprehensive schools have to pace their lessons so that children of all different learning speeds can keep up.

Grammar schools move at double-speed because everyone in the room passed a selective exam. Because the teachers rush through topics in class, the students must do heavy homework (like research and reading) before the lesson even starts just to keep their heads above water.

Only in top top sets at Comprehensive they study Further maths and are expected to take Triple Science instead of Combined Science at GCSE.

I am surprised that you think that on grammar will be less homework. It is on the contrary.

It is not like in Grammar life is easier because kids are more capable. They have less help but there is a huge push on results. The grammar exist because they have good results and that comes at a cost of pressure to get to top Uni and before that get top grades. There is far more push in grammar than in comprehensives

I never claimed that a typical grammar school has less homework than a typical comprehensive school, nor do I care about the general trend. I am only comparing the two specific schools I am considering.

We can't really judge the trend without knowing which specific schools you're looking at, of course. But trust me, the GCSE and A-level results themselves tell you everything you need to know about the workload.

You are describing a very unusual grammar.

As a principle, grammar schools have to push relentlessly for top results across every single GCSE subject because their national rankings—and their ability to attract the next wave of top applicants- depend entirely on it. It’s a self-perpetuating model. You simply cannot get a cohort of 150+ kids achieving straight 8s and 9s (A*s) without a massive, highly demanding homework and independent study load backing it up.

Most important is to understand what your child needs. My needed academic school with rules. But some of his buddies were e.g artists or sporty. They went to schools where e.g everybody is in the choir and play instrument or they have top country team in basketball etc. Those who were into humanities and languages went to another school where they pick out of 4 languages and not like my son's school you choose French or Spanish and it is only 3 h per week.
Ultimately it is about your child. But trust me good results always mean a lot of homework and hard work. In grammar also is a huge parent involvement.

Indications are nothing 😂 Our previous school routinely said DC should spend no more than 20 minutes on a project. In reality, researching a few sources, drafting the analysis and writing the final 2-3 pages always took at least 2-3 hours :)))

When I asked a pupil at Henrietta during an open day what they were doing for HW in English and some humanities, her reply was a total shocker! 😂 It was a very deep and advanced work.

Btw that Michaela Community is an amazing school, people move to get the child in. The closest grammars are superselective and the chances to get in unless a child is a genius ars very low: QE, Henrietta, Latymer.And they do have huge pressure there. I know a boy from my son's primary who got to QE.

I trust what you're saying, but isn't that just a universal truth? If you want your child to get into a top university, they have to put in the hard work and you’ll likely need to be involved, no matter if they go to a grammar, comprehensive, or private school.

Points taken. What about another indicator: forum discussions show that many parents complain about the heavy homework load at School A, while people rarely complain about the workload at School B?

Of course. However here we are discussing your best options for your child. You have to decide if you want hard work and results or relaxed good school. Here in London Richmond my son's peers were going to Teddington school if the wanted well balanced school life without a lot of pressure with relatively good results. No-one who had such plans went to grammar. The closest grammar is Tiffin girls and boys and getting in means either a genius or hothousing a kid.

In Bucks and Kent, grammar counties are more relaxed grammars but still pushing for results. In London are only superselective grammars with huge pressure.

Oh that's very easy 😂 The vast majority of grammar school parents are of the notion that the more HW the better. If anything, they would complain grammar school is not giving their DC enough work and would sign DC up for yet another mathletics 😂

Well, there may be grammars and grammars of course. HBS is very different to Bucks.

Actually as a parent with a child at Latymer, the homework is pretty mild in KS3, about the same as DC at state. They say 20 mins per subject per week but reality is that they mainly just get hw in Maths, science work sheets and the odd English/Geog/History bit. The only regular one was Maths which is the same for my state DC.
It did ramp up in KS4 but assume the state one will too. I definitely don't recognise the hothouse pressure from the school at any rate.

As mentioned up thread, the main difference homework wise is that kid at comp gets home earlier so has more time to do it.

Grammar kids are taking much more lightly homework as they studied for 11+. For most comprehensive kids secondary is a shock

They may not complain in a forum but there are a few families that do say they like their child to have a happy childhood and they are quite relax but the child would say they have 3 hours of maths and another 2 hours of another subject tutoring. Intense education online tutoring during the holiday time. So it may not be stated but behind the scenes as another MN mentioned there are is a high level of homework and studying needed to get 7,8,9. Those with all 8 and 9s are super selective and that comes from school, students, parents inputs.

My son is in Catholic school they get weekly extensive math and science on Sparx . Like 90 minutes each per week. Around 30 min RE homework, 30 min French, around 1 hour weekly for English.
Twice a term tests for Math Science History Geography, a lot of sheets to revise. Several hours for math and Science and 2 h for other subjects Occasional homework for Comupter Science. ... And this is NOT grammar. Catholic state , top 100 state schools

It appears that Latymer (a grammar school) sets less homework than your son’s state comprehensive school.

Differentiation can occur in mixed ability classes in classwork, homework, targets & feedback. Young people do not move along at the same pace (they end up with very with very different grades). I attended a comprehensive. My DD also attends one. Both were large and on most performance statistically average. I had mixed ability teaching for some GCSEs. It was fine. I did no homework at primary in the 80s. Homework at secondary wasn’t a shock. Rather a novelty that quickly faded 🙂
Anyway, as @minipie concisely summed up I think the op is pretty sure about her type of target school and it isn’t the type of comprehensive DD attends. She needs to choose what is right for her child, which we all would if we had a choice.
i will admit I do sometimes find it a bit tiresome when it is assumed comprehensives don’t stretch high attaining children or children at private or grammars necessarily attain higher. There really is diiversity within comprehensive cohorts and teaching can be strong & stretching. It isn’t always, but practice varies in all sectors. However, I don’t want to derail going on about it.

@Breeze67 I hope you have got what you need from this thread.
It is very obvious that you have done A LOT of research as to which secondary school will be the best fit for your DC.

Most people when considering private school don't measure it on a £/hr criterion. They choose private because:

• They can afford it
• Small class sizes
• Great facilities
• Broader curriculum
• Specialist expertise e.g. academics / sport / art / music /SEN etc
• Better culture fit for their DC
• ....... the list goes on and on but I've probably covered the top reasons

You've made your choice.
Good luck with the 11+.
Y5 is really full on for them but remember, it's a marathon not a sprint. Hope you get a good tutor

Year 8?.

In Y7 was a bit less. Now they do quite a bit

Do you have sets in Latymer? Here the top sets are getting more homework.

I know a girl in the lowest set for math. She struggles with multiplication. And on the other hand top top set is doing quadratic functions and drawing parabolas at the end of y8