Private Boarding vs. Day School vs. Grammar

[Breeze67]

As a parent of a Year 5 DD, I’m struggling to justify the premium of a private day school. My primary concern is the disruption and mixed academic abilities in comprehensive state schools, which is why a selective school—be it a grammar or an independent one—seems like a solid solution. There is so much praise for independent schools, but when you look at the time factor, it gets complicated: When you look at how little time kids are actually at school—only covering half the year (private schools have much longer holidays) and only 8 out of 24 hours in a school day—it is clear that the heavy lifting, the real character building, and extra learning still happen at home. If we parents are doing the bulk of the work, what are we actually paying the big fees for?
Despite the fancy surface, much of the day-to-day experience between a grammar and an indie is not significantly different. Whether it’s museum trips, sports days, or classroom activities, the core experience cannot be vastly different. Is a class of 20-plus kids in a private day school really that much better than 30 in a top grammar? Of course, a difference exists, but likely impacts less than 1/3 of the school time. So, if we look at the maths, it’s 1/3 (the advantage) of 1/3 (the school day duration) of 1/2 (the school year), which is only about 1/18 of the year's time! Are we paying a figure roughly equivalent to the UK average salary for what essentially amounts to a 1/18 difference in yearly education? I am shocked by the number.
This leads me to wonder: is boarding the only true exception? Personally, I will not do it because I just enjoy my kid's company every day. But logically, only full boarding offers a genuine holistic education. It is a 24/7 immersion into an academic and social community that a day school, by design, simply cannot touch.
So, if day schools aren't significantly better than grammars, and I’m unwilling to consider boarding, am I left with a compromise? Are we paying for a superior education, or just a different peer group?

It has been proven in various studies that mixed ability at start of senior leadership to better results for both higher and lower performers so completely agree with this post.

And yet we know many kids who were tutored to within an inch of their lives as their parents just assumed grammar was better (despite local state results being 3%) different. Those kids are now struggling. They have come back to local state for a levels and are thriving with most university bound.

My previous understanding of the state and private schools and selectivity was a bit limited, so this thread has really been an eye-opener. It has only reinforced my decision, which is rooted in the practical circumstances of my child and our school options.

IMO the biggest factor in state secondary school outcomes (not grammar) is location.
If you live in an affluent area eg. St Albans / Harpenden, where house prices are high, the state secondary schools, in the main, tend to be very good. ......but on top of that, st Albans has amazing private schools.

All I would say that if you are going to use state secondary after 7 years of private primary, be prepared for a very different culture. Private schools tend to be more insulated from the inequalities in wider society.

@Besafeeatcake

It has been proven in various studies that mixed ability at start of senior leadership to better results for both higher and lower performers so completely agree with this post.

Sorry, I don’t understand this sentence. Does it mean people who went to schools with mixed ability classes do better at senior leadership whether they were successful or not at academic work?

Just to minimise the culture shock, I would choose our local private school over our local comprehensive. While I realize that the bells and whistles of this private school may not always be worth the cost, and that the local comprehensive is academically very strong, its approach is simply too rigid for her. Honestly, after seven years of private girl school education, I just do not have the courage to make the transition to a co-ed comprehensive with such a different social and cultural environment.
That said, our top choice is definitely a specific grammar girl school. I value it not simply because it is a grammar school, but because it happens to offer a good combination of academic excellence, pastoral care, and extracurriculars that perfectly suit her. It is the ideal scenario where she would be surrounded by peers with similar intellectual and family backgrounds. I truly hope she can make it.

You could have got bullied at a comprehensive just as easily. Bullying at all schools is very common.

Leadership was a typo for “leads”

its approach is simply too rigid for her.

In what way is the comprehensive’s approach too rigid for her @Breeze67 ?

They are extremely strict with school rules and set a lot of homework, appearing to focus too much on academics and discipline. Most of the reviews I have read online are negative, despite the fact that they all acknowledge the exam results are good. I might just be relying on hearsay, but after reading so many negative comments(maybe 9/10 are negative?)I find myself very reluctant to even consider the school seriously.

Which grammar school area are you applying for? Is it super selective?

Sorry I do not want to disclose the name of the school, but it is ranked very high and considered very competitive, though I am not entirely sure if it is considered super-selective.

Apologies what I was trying to say is that mixing abilities in one class rather than separating has a more positive outcome for all students grades in that class.

@Breeze67 do you have any friends with older kids at the comprehensive? That was my best source of information about what schools in our area were really like.

I have one DC at grammar and one at a very good local comp. The main difference is fewer opportunities for travel, and extra curriculars. For example, grammar school has week long language exchanges and school trips for language students, whereas the comp did a day trip to France. Someone mentioned drama up thread, the comp still goes to the theatre quite a bit for drama GCSE, but we're in London so more availability. The drama facilities at the grammar are much better though, the music offering is amazing and sport is reasonable.
The grammar school obviously gets better results but it should do as it's super selective. But I don't think my younger DC will end up with vastly different results to their grammar school sibling, and both will be considering similar 6th forms and unis.

One other difference is daily life. Youngest's school has less than a mile's catchment, it's 15 minutes walk and all their friends live in the area. Eldest school has a huge catchment and it takes them 50 mins commute to get to school, and lotsof their friends live that far away. I do think this is worth considering when you think about what their daily life will be like. If you're getting home early, you have more time to do that homework.

FWIW DH and I both went to private schools but didn't think it was worth the sacrifice given the standard of state schools in our area.

Different grammar areas have different selection criteria.
Some areas are super-selective where scores are ranked and they take the top ranking students.
Other areas, like Bucks, require a minimum score and then other admissions criteria is applied.

Similar to @Stowickthevast both myself and my DH went to private school. The local grammar schools are very good, the good local private schools are just too expensive for us

@Stowickthevast

It was me who mentioned drama GCSE. We too are in London. Our closest comprehensive did precisely zero theatre trips for drama. It would probably take us about half an hour on public transport to get to the West End.

But you also said above that the local state school was too strict and too much homework was given. If this is a problem then please understand that grammar school is not more relaxed.
You have to know your child if she is an academic type or not. Not everybody has to be. If she is then strict school will be suitable

To be clear, I am not against academic hard work. My DD is very academic and likes to be challenged. My concern is that the strict rules at our local comprehensive school seem to be about controlling behavior rather than helping students learn.
The amount of homework at this grammar school I am after feels right, similar to the private school I have looked at. In contrast, the local comprehensive gives much more homework. They also have longer school days and fewer holidays than the grammar school.(I do not understand how they can be so different since both are state schools!) I worry that the extra work is just busywork and not useful for learning. It might make my DD tired or make her lose interest in school. The grammar school’s approach, based on what I have read on their website and seen in various discussions, seems to focus more on student learning independently and working efficiently. Of course, there is big pressure and obsession with high grades, but it seems to come mostly from the students and parents rather than from the school.
I also looked at the Ofsted data for both schools. The grammar school has far fewer students on free school meals (under 10%) than the comprehensive school (over 30%). Also, fewer students there need extra learning support (under 5% vs over 15%). It seems that because the students at the grammar school come from more well-off families and have fewer learning difficulties, the school does not need to use such strict and heavy-handed discipline. The teaching pace at the grammar school is fast, and they offer advanced maths classes that even the local selective private schools do not have. However, you rarely hear any complaints from the students or parents. On the forums, I see mostly positive reviews for this grammar school’s pastoral care, while the reviews for this comprehensive school are mostly negative.

Yowza to that last post…

You understand that learning support requirements for conditions such as dyslexia is not linked to the earnings of parents, right?

But the more you post, the more I wonder why you started with such a general comparison of types of school, when you are in quite an unusual area from the sounds of it (I could hazard a guess as to which is the comprehensive you are talking about).

I listed those as two separate issues. Please re-read my post before you comment.

ahahaha I have been on your thread from the beginning and read everything, thanks.

I stand by my reply to you.

The super-selective grammar schools always have far fewer children on FSM, generally because low income households are unable to afford the intensive tutoring needed to get into these schools. And generally children with learning difficulties will also find it harder to access the level needed to pass grammar school exams. There are definitely some children at my eldest's school that are autistic or ADHD but fewer than at my youngest's school because the school is super selective. It's self fulfilling.

@BonjourCrisette that's a real pity. Quite a lot of the theatres do programmes that support state school access, my youngest's school has done things in the past with the Old Vic and Donmar Warehouse. My Y9 has been twice this year, once was to Stratford rather than the west end but still a great experience, and they also went to a Q&A with Jacinda Ardern promoting her new film. We're a similar distance to you from the centre.

Since you do not wish to re-read my post, I do not mind clarifying my point: I am simply stating that because grammar schools typically have more family support (low FSM rates, which suggest more resourceful family) AND fewer students with special educational needs (low SEN percentages), they do not need to dedicate as much time to "catch-up" homework or rely on the heavy-handed strictness that a school with much higher numbers in those areas might need to employ to manage such challenges.

In contrast, the local comprehensive gives much more homework.

The stats show relation between homework and exam results. Sounds like you have a good comprehensive there.

seems to focus more on student learning independently and working efficiently.

Yes, they dump it all on you as a parent and your child. Sorry but in education there are no shortcuts as " efficiently". One has to spend time over books, excercises at home or at school. This grammar sounds like a lot of parent involvement to get the results.

They also have longer school days and fewer holidays than the grammar school.
That is not possible with holidays. That would be something very unusual. All state schools including grammar have the same holidays, half terms etc and it is coordinated by the local Councils. And there are several reasons why is like that. The lenght of school day in grammar and state schools is also similar. 30 min is at max difference between schools

Private schools have more holidays and have different timing. I always considered it a rip off. Paying for much less education, shorter hours and lenghty holidays.

Has far fewer students on free school meals (under 10%) than the comprehensive school (over 30%).
If a parent was unemployed for 1 month or two the kid is on Free meals for the kast few years. I believe only in Sept there will be a review of it.
Free Meals in this economy say very little about parents. They could be IT specialists that lost jobs.

Also, fewer students there need extra learning support (under 5% vs over 15%). It seems that because the students at the grammar school come from more well-off families and have fewer learning difficulties.

My son has dyspraxia. It means he is very slow at handwriting. He gets laptop at tests. Yet he manages to be in top top sets. There are many reasons why kids get learning support. Grammar schools are full of brilliant kids who are high functioning ASD - talented at mathsz sciences. Often they have behaviour issues

@Stowickthevast Yes, it is a real pity! I know there are plenty of access initiatives - and the tickets my daughter had were often special deals for schools so it was costing relatively little. I think the problem is attitude rather than opportunity tbh. We have a local theatre that does brilliant schools stuff and my daughter's primary took full advantage of this but the comprehensive doesn't seem to. It's a good school too. I don't know anyone who is unhappy with it, but things like this were pretty offputting to me since life is about more than just good grades and academics and I think having access to creative stuff is incredibly important.